Fresh water dip?

[DebbieC]

Exactly how do you do this? I'm thinking fill a cannister with filtered fresh water the same temp as the aquarium. How long do I keep my sick fish in this water? 3 or 4 seconds? I should not put an Stress Zyme or Stress Coat in this fresh water?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jerry Gonzales]

Hello Debbie,
I did this with one of my fish before. It was only after I quarenteened it. Used copper but couldnt rid it of ick. I left my fish in the FW for about 15 to 20 sec. Fish did better when I put it back in the Q tank. It may also not be able to handle it if the fish is weak. HTH's The water was same temp and R/O water so I didnt have any additives in it.
Jerry

 

[Rich-n-poor]

ok heres some old wives tales on ick but ive read some supporting evidence and my LFS has used them both...

Supposedly parasites do not do well in low salinity say 1.019 one of my livestock suppliers keeps all his fish only tanks at this level to prevent parasites and i have never got a fish from him that didnt do well but it requires a long acclimation process to put the fish in the tank

this seems the equivalent of a fresh water dip (i.e. no salinity) but not as drastic why not lower the salinity in the hospital tank to 1.019 slowly My lfs says parasites cannot live in this level of salinity but fish do fine

Since you have a hospital tank why not try to block out all light in it as i read that the larval form of ick requires light to survive I tried this and it cured a ick outbreak that i had in my tank just cover the tank with dark paper and shut out the light

as i said old wives tales but there is ussually alot of truth in old wives tales
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[Anonymous]

Richnpoor,
Your LFS guy is wrong Mkay...
I used to be an LFS guy, and have been keeping fish for many years, although I'm new to reefs.
I used to maintain my marine fish tanks at 1.019 years ago with no problem. It doesn't take any acclimation period at all either. I used to bring my fish home and drop them in the tank, maybe after floating them for a minute or two. (now I was keeping groupers, triggers and such, very hardy, but the point stands)Only very delicate fish that shouldn't be kept anyway would have a problem acclimating to such an evironment. It makes parasite infections less likey, but it isn't anywhere near the equivelent of a freshwater bath. I had an ick outbreak or two at this salinity I should mention. The main advantage with maintaing my tank like this was that I could almost ignore salinity checks between water changes.
I freshwater dip new aquisitions anywhere from 10 seconds to 2 minutes depending on what kind of fish it is. Groupers, moray eels, triggers and damsels are among the fish that don't seem to even notice they are in fresh water for a time. I had a blue betta (small, grouper like fish) actually display and pick a fight with another fish while being dipped.
Other fish are delicate, and will stess out too much if they are freshwater dipped. I make a point not to keep overly delicate species, so it isn't an issue for me anyway.
Hope this info is of some use to you.
Jim

 

[AnotherGoldenTeapot]

I thinlk that if the fish's survival is in question (so not a minor case of ick) then a quarantine tank and copper is the best solution.

 

[Anonymous]

'sigh' Well I don't really see what is all that funny there Richnpoor. I'm glad you got a good chortle though.

Nobody said salinity doesn't matter, I just said that 1.019 doesn't affect them as much as your LFS guy thinks. There's a big difference between 1.019 salinity and NO salinity! There is also a big difference between "less likey" and saying the this level of salinity prevents parasites. See?
Also, there are other nasy critters besides ich that we don't really want introduced into our tanks. There are protozoans an metazoans that you've never heard of that can give your fish a hard time.
Garlic works on the initial stages of an ich infestation, and on hardy fish the best. Forget about a Regal angel or a Cobberband butterfly in advanced stages of infection, it doesn't work quite that well, and not all the time on any fish.
Hasta
Jim

 

[Rich-n-poor]

jdeets

my post did not say that parasites that parasites cannot live at this level only that my LFS uses this level of salinity to prevent(i.e.inhibit) parasites

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

supposedly parasites do not do well in low salinity say 1.019 one of my LFS keeps all his fish only tanks at this level to prevent parasites

secondly i specified these were fish only tanks and so telling me this is too low a level for reefs is kinda pointless isnt it ?

JimM

what i found so funny was that after you told me my favorite LFS was wrong you agreed with him in your post almost word for word

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

It makes parasite infestations less likely

exactly what is he wrong about since you agree with him on this ?

Now I know there are many much more expierced reefers on this board than me But being an LFS doesnt neccessarily make anyone a good one I know some lousy LFS and some Great ones

My intention was to offer debbie some help and maybe start a discussion on salinity's effects on parasites. Perhaps lowering salinity in her hospital tank would aid whatever treatment she is using but I guess we will all never know since we are engaged in a full blown flaming session in this post now

my main problem with fresh water dip is this by the time you see the parasite on the fish there are untold numbers in your tank in larval form which are just waiting for the right conditions to attack the fish anew unless you do something to inhibit them I.E. lower salanity , malachite green, ect the fish more than likely will have ick again in 3 days which is the gestational period of this parasite To sucessfull stop ick you must stop/inhibit it while it is still in this stage

Now I apologize to whomever Ive offended but please read my post before you attack it next time and try not to misquote me
thx

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[JennM]

FYI the LFS I worked at kept its FO systems and quarantine at 1.017, and reef at 1.023. Inverts cannot cope with the lowered salinity.

I've fw dipped dozens of fish. Use RO water at like temp of the tank the fish are in. I don't add buffer but my RO has PH of 8.0 anyway. Put the fish in for 5 mintues. IMO and IME seconds isn't enough. Sometimes it takes trematodes, for example, a couple of minutes to die and drop off. A few seconds is worthless in this regard. The thing that makes dips effective is that the parasites cannot osmoregulate and they die. Fish DO osmoregulate and can tolerate short periods of time in a FW bath. Some breathe hard, some lie down, some thrash about. I find the thrashers shed their parasites better than those who just "sit".

I have NEVER lost a fish in a FW dip. In fact, I've seen some severely infested fish bounce back.

People are usually concerned about the stress. The procedure is probably as stressful (or more so) on the person doing it, as it is on the fish! However, most fish "forget" about it moments after being returned to their tank, and return to normal behavior, or whatever behavior they were doing before the dip. I actually had one fish (P. annularis) that was severely infested with trematodes on 3 different occasions over several months: twice in our store, and once in its new owner's tank, and it actually became accustomed to the drill! It must have actually learned to associate breathing easier after a dip, and never resisted. I also conditioned him to eat out of my hand when he was on the mend! (smart fishie!).

Copper has to be monitored carefully, and is stressful during the whole duration of treatment. Too much copper can be harmful or fatal to the fish. It is an effective medication, but IMO should be used as a last resort.

HTH

Jenn

 

[monkeyboy]

We keep our fish systems ar 1.018 and guess what, they still can come down w/ ich. The acclimation process is simple and takes around 30 minutes for us. We also run copper, so when a fish comes in looking like it has been dipped in flour, the ich hits the copper and the low salinity and is usually gone the next day or a day after.

Freshwater dips usually work for ich and marine velvet IME. Sometimes they don't even make a dent, so you never know. Theres a product called "dip-away", its some bright orange stuff (pretty descriptive aye?) that you add to buffered, dechlorinated, tap water and dip away. No pun intended. This stuff improves the efficiency of the dip, which could lessen the total amount of dips for a fish w/ ich. A less stressfull alternative is the quick-cure bath which is essentially a bucket w/ saltwater and enough quick cure to make the water a light-medium blue color w/ an airstone for around a half an hour.

Well thats what works for us! HTH

Kevin

 

[DebbieC]

Thanks everyone! Great feedback. I should have dipped. I was afraid that I would stress her out even more. But she bit the big one last night. Now...I'm not sure if she had Ick...or if the rocks just beat her up because she was leaning on them. I currently do not see any signs of Ick on my other fish. I will go ahead and feed them food dipped in garlic oil just in case. AGain...Thank you.

 

[Colonel]

Here is an article I have read and used, and it works well.

Low salinity is another approach to controlling Cryptocaryon. Colorni (1985, 1987) reported various methods for treating fish using hyposalinity. One approach was to lower salinity in fish aquariums to 10 parts per thousand (ppt), or a specific gravity of 1.007, for 3 hours every third day to kill tomonts in the aquarium before they could hatch. He also found that tomonts exposed to salinity of 20 to 25 ppt (specific gravity of 1.0145 to 1.018) produced tomites, but their hatching was delayed up to 28 days. Thus reducing salinity to 23 ppt (specific gravity of 1.017) may not be consistently effective. Cysts kept at 15 ppt (specific gravity of 1.011) for 48 hours or more did not produce any live tomites.

We have used low salinity to treat fish with Cryptocaryon here in our lab. We remove half the water in the aquarium and replace it over a 1 hour period with dechlorinated fresh water. The resulting salinity (approximately 15 ppt or specific gravity of 1.011) is maintained for 7 to 10 days. This treatment should not be used for invertebrates or especially sensitive fish, but most marine fish will tolerate it well.

 

[Rich-n-poor]

found the technical name for low salinity treatment Osmmotic Shock Treatment also found some information including step by step instructions for fresh water dip on:

about.com

just enter it on your browser and then follow the links to saltwater aquarium and fish disease i would post the link for you but it never works at reefs I have tried several times

heres what i read on OST "it places the infectors in an enviorment in which they cannot hope to survive while the host can lowering salinity of the entire system(your hospital tank not your reef) to 1.015 specifically"

apparently the larvel stage of ick need high osmotic pressure(i.e salinity) to survive and convert sea water into fresh water for their system some people recommend even lower salinity which I guess is fine if the fish remains unharmed

There is also complete instructions on a fresh water dip on this site and since that was your original question I thought it might intrest you

this site also discusses other fish diseases and treatment (ie black spot) and gives some reviews of medications available

HTH wow i just learned more about ick than i wanted to know today

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[davelin315]

To elaborate on JennM's post and also to explain why a shock is necessary in a freshwater dip, a fish can osmoregulate and the ich and parasites cannot. The theory behind a freshwater dip is that when you introduce a permeable membrane filled with saline water into freshwater, the freshwater will flow through the membrane to equalize salinities on either side of the membrane. A freshwater dip kills by forcing freshwater into the saline dip thereby "exploding" the offending parasites. Obviously, if you acclimate the fish, the parasites will also acclimate. Although very few of the parasites actually explode, the purpose is served by them being bloated and it destroys their bodies. By the time osmosis has finished its job, they're dead. As far as fish are concerned, some can tolerate longer dips than others. I have dipped fish for more than 30 minutes before, and they have been none the worse for wear. The key is to make sure that they are doing okay while in the dip. I tend to check on them constantly, and will often poke and prod them to keep them swimming upright. One possible repercussion of a freshwater dip is that you will destroy the swim bladder of a fish. For a delicate fish that depends on its swim bladder more than others, this can easily be fatal, therefore they are less likely to be dipped or dipped for a shorter period of time. For a fish like a puffer, the danger is that the fish will already be puffed up full of saltwater and in trying to keep itself larger, it could easily harm itself. For those of you who are divers, think of it like holding your breath while ascending from 80 feet down. You'll explode your lungs and then you'll die if you don't exhale the entire time. The freshwater dip is kind of an extreme measure, but one which most fish can deal with. I believe 5-15 minutes is a recommended general time for dipping a fish, but I've seen fish that can tolerate dips for four or five hours.

 

[Ben1]

Actually a fresh water bath doesnt kill the cysts it just causes them to fall off, and if re entered to salt water later they can rehatch.

This is from Marine Aquarium Referenc By Marten Moe Jr.

 

[Rich-n-poor]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

it makes parasite infestations less likely

well if hes wrong it sounds like you agree with him ROFLMAO

As far as acclimation I wouldnt take anything living in 1.019 salinity and drop it immediately in the 1.025 salinity in my tank this must surely be stressful to any fish. And would probably kill a star or at least make him drop arms

I have used the light method twice in a tank when medications have failed and it has worked for me i will see if i can reasearch this a little more and post the links

But like i said it is wives tales

oh yeah the treatment of choice on this board seems to be garlic by far but from what i read this must be done in the early stages of ick

One more question if salinity level doesnt matter to ick why a fresh water dip at all ?

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[jdeets]

The LFS guy is wrong... He said that parasites cannot live at 1.019. That's just not true. They can live all the way down to 1.009. To rid fish of ich using low salinity, the salinity has to be lowered to 1.008. That's just too low for inverts in a reef...

It is true that lower salinity will make parasites not as hardy, but they can survive at 1.019.

I've never had an ich outbreak in my reef, so I can't comment on the effectiveness of a FW dip on active ich, but I do put all my new arrivals through a FW dip on their way into the main tank.

 

[Fish Guy]

One other thing to consider when doing freshwater dips is the PH of the freshwater. Make sure it is the same as your saltwater. I used this on a big naso that got ich when i moved him home and it had a positive affect on him. I have had him a year now after the fw dip.

 

[jdeets]

Rich-n-poor:

You apparently overlooked part of your initial post:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

My lfs says parasites cannot live in this level of salinity but fish do fine

Before you accuse me of misquoting you, check your quote...

Also, I think it is significant that 1.008 is too low for inverts, regardless of what your LFS has in their tanks. The last thing I want to see if some newbie with ich lowering their SG and killing their inverts.

For treatment using hyposalinity at these levels (1.008), a hospital tank is certainly necessary. I didn't want someone to read my post and think that they could lower the SG in their reef to 1.008 to fight ich.

You are correct that lowering the SG in the hospital tank would assist whatever treatment they are using in the hospital tank. Raising the temperature would also help. And, you also are correct that a FW dip, by itself, is useless because the ich is a system problem, not a problem with a single fish.

 

[Terry B]

First things first, we haven't even determined if this is ich! What are the symptoms? Fish do get sick with other things than ich.
The best treatment for ich is hyposalinity. The parasite can continue to thrive and reproduce in a salinity above 16ppt. This translates to a specific gravity of about 1.010 at 77 to 80F. Therefore the treatment should be at or below 16ppt or a specific gravity of 1.009 works well. Going below this is stressful because it forces the fish to attempt to osmoregulate in a manner that is reverse to what is natural. The key is getting the salinity low enough to stop ich from reproducing, while keeping the salinity higher than the internal salinity of the fish. The internal salinity of fish is about 11ppt or a specific gravity of about 1.008. Treatment should last a minimum of three weeks.
Terry B

 

[Rich-n-poor]

James

the originial post I believe already indicated the use of a hospital tank personally I have no desire to flame back in forth in this post I just want to try to help the fish

I began my post with the statement that both treatments were old wives tales and needed further research and ended it the same way I often try unconvential/natural approaches to the treatment of fish and these were two that had been suggested to me

as it turns out lowered salinity (Osmotic Shock Treatment) seems to be a proven method after all although there seems to be differing opinions on what the correct salinity is to use to obtain optimium results with the least shock to the fish

I would be intrested in hearing any research on light deprivation on the ick parasite lifecycle to see if there is any supporting evidence since I once had an outbreak of ick in my tank which I employed this method and it seemed to work

my recent reading indicated that raising the tank tempture serves to either accellerate or decellerate (sorry cant remember which right now) the maturity process of ick in it cyst stage and thus works be natural means also

I prefer not to dump chemicals into my tank to treat disease as i have corals my fish are also small and catching them nearly impossible eliminating the possibility of a hospital tank

turns out there was alot of good information in this post about salinity and ick that i do not see mentioned in any of the other posts on the subject

lets try to limit our dicussion to the topic at hand instead of trying to rip others posts appart on technicalities Everyone including us will benefit that way

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