Hyposalinity and Ich

[Westwood]

I've been advised to lower the salinity to 1.016 and raise the temperature to 82 over a period of 3-4 days as a method of combatting Ich. I've also read that salinity of lower than 1.021 is stressful to inverts and corals.

How long can I leave the salinity at 1.016 without killing the inverts and live rock, etc.?

I don't want to tackle the copper medications and I've been treating with garlic and previously Garlic Elixir trying to keep this situation under control.

Any suggestions, especially about hyposalinity killing inverts, would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[Stark]

Hyposalinity is not a treatment that you can safely use in the presence of inverts. Invertebrates are unable to osmoregulate, and would certainly be killed in a hypotonic solution. All the fish from the affected tank need to be removed to a separate aquarium with an established biological filter.
Once your fish are isolated, they should be treated for 30 days. It’s my understanding that the specific gravity needs to be gradually lowered to 1.010. If it’s kept any higher, it may not be completely effective. If this is no longer the technique de jour, I’m sure someone will chime in to correct me.

 

[Vinman]

You do not want to hypo the whole tank, the inverts won't like it. You must take the infected fish out and hypo in a QT!

 

[Westwood]

I guess I may be stuck with the garlic route. I only have one other small saltwater tank that could be turned into a hospital tank or QT. Thanks for your advice.

Really the garlic route is working but every couple of days, the gramma has spots again and the next he won't have any.

From what I've read, the ich will not go away until I completely disinfect the tank or treat the whole tank with copper. Until I have a big enough tank or container to house about 120 lbs. of LR and all the inverts, I'm stuck unless there is some medication that is reef safe. What about No-Ich? Some people say it works. The people I've been dealing with here in Wyoming don't know and the other people in Colorado tell me that they've not had consistant success.

Thanks again.

 

[Anonymous]

Also you don't want to raise the temp you want to lower it.

Glenn

 

[MILPIL]

The actual Sg, for the treatment is 1.015, with no need to raise the temperature. However, it is correct that in the presence of Invertebrates, you should not use this method unless you have a seperate quarantine tank. The lowering of the SG needs to be done within a 4-5 day period of time though, after which the fish should be kept at that level for 14-21 days. During this period, you may want to feed Garlic soaked food, as this is a good substitute for Metronidazole, which will help in the evacuation of any internal parasites.

 

[Stark]

I’m curious as to where you came by your conclusions. The timetable you suggest might be a bit too brief, considering the tomonts of Cryptocaryon irritans can lie in the substrate for up to 28 days before hatching. If you were to reintroduce fish to the aquarium after 14 days, it’s very possible they would suffer reinfection.
I tend to believe a specific gravity of 1.015 is a little high. From my own experience, as well as what I’ve read, a specific gravity of 1.010 is necessary to be effective. I’ve often read suggestions that 1.009, or even 1.008, should be maintained.
I’m not trying to be argumentative; I’d prefer to be corrected if I’m mistaken.

[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: Stark ]

 

[Rich-n-poor]

I have read several articles which advocate specific gravity of 1.015 as sufficent to stop the parasite due to its inability to osmoregulate

Also the purpose in raising tank temp is to accellerate the maturing process of the daughter cells since they can only be killed by low salinity in their free swimming stage (i.e. hatch faster kill em faster)

This method must be preformed in a hospital tank as low salinity can have very detrimental effects on all inverts

Kick-Ick is a commercially available treatment that I believe is reef safe but it is also expensive

HTH

_________________
gremlin plants

 

[Vinman]

Westwood, what you might be missing is the fact that when you cure the infected fish in a QT if will reaquire it back in the tank you got it from. Ich is always in the background in a reef tank ready to "pounce" on a fish that's stressed. Kinda like the cold. Preventive measures is the key to CONTROLLING ich in a reef. Make sure your environment is top notch and your fish will thrive. Now if you didn't have inverts then you can get rid of it by hypo or coppering the whole tank! The reason we QT sick fish is to give it an envirnment better than the last one it was in with some medication but you have to fix the original problem that it came from!

 

[Westwood]

vinman, thanks. I've decided to go back to my normal salinity and continue to treat with garlic which I realize isn't a cure. I can't believe the LFS person told me to lower the salinity in the first place. He knows my system and its inhabitants and I've purchased my fish from him as well as the hardware. I like your analogy about the cold and until I can get a QT tank set up I'll probably be struggling with this. When I got the last fish they showed no signs of parasites until about a week after they were in my tank. I guess the ich was still in its dormant stage at that time. Again, thanks.

WW

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Westwood ]

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Westwood ]

 

[Terry B]

O.K. here is the scoop. Hyposalinity must be used at a low enough level to interupt Cryptocaryon irritans (ich) life cycle. This parasite continues to reproduce at a specific gravity far below 1.015. The salinity must be maintained at 16ppt or less for a minimum of three weeks (4 to 6 weeks is safer). This translates to a specific gravity of about 1.009 at 78 to 80F. An SG of 1.015 will do little if anything. The treatment cannot be used with inverts, live rock, live sand. sharks, or rays. I have written articles on it that have appeared in several of the aquarium magazines nationally available. If you want some further specifics just ask. BTW, I have reason to believe that manipulating the water temperature is counterproductive unless the water temperature was too low to begin with.
Terry B

 

[Westwood]

Thanks, Terry.

Guess my LFS person doesn't know as much as I thought.

 

[randy holmes-farley]

Terry:

Unfortunately, describing the specific gravity along with a temperature in the way that you did is ambiguous, and may lead people to treat fish in ways that you do not want them to (e.g., too low or high of salinity).

I'd hoped to help curtail such reporting of sg with an Aquarium Frontiers paper that describes the problems, but AF folded before they posted it. IMO, that sort of reporting as often as not leads to incorrect understanding by people that read it and may lead to inappropriate treatments for fish (among other things).

Describing the salinity in ppt (as you did) is, IMO, an unambiguous way to present salinity, and that helps everyone understand what you mean.

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Randy Holmes-Farley ]

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Randy Holmes-Farley ]

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Randy Holmes-Farley ]

 

[Astreak]

FWIW, I have a 55 FOWLER. My startup tank. About a year ago, I was ICH-infested. My yellow tang looked like a salted margarita. I had no choice but to try hypo, after attempts to control it with Melafix, garlic, dips, etc. And I had no secondary home for my fish (the tang and a cardinal, blennie, maroon clown and coral beauty), LR (80 lbs)or inverts (snails, hermits, featherdusters).

Over the course of 2 days I dropped my salinity to 1.010 @ 78 degrees. Kept it there for 4 weeks. I lost my featherdusters and snails. My LR died back. But all fish survived, as did my hermits (and evidently a few other creatures).

Afterwards, I had some algae bloom and some high nitrates (probably from the die-off and poor skimming due to the low salinity). But, the total outcome was no fish fatalies AND I have been disease-free ever since. So much so, that I refuse to add anything back to my tank, save some replacement inverts. I like this easy sailing. And evidently there were a few more survivors than I figured, because I have 2 hellacious spaghetti worms as well as, some other unidentifed but entertaining inverts.

 

[naesco]

I just wanted to make sure that you are using the garlic extract treatment correctly as it has worked for me.
Soak dry food like nori or flakes for 30 minutes in garlic extract. Feed only this food as the idea here is to get as much garlic in the fish as possible. Do this for 10 days and the ich should be gone.
Don't put any nets or other stuff that was in while the ich was active without sterilizing by freezing or running in hot water.
Good Luck.

 

[Westwood]

I'm in the same position as you, with no hospital tank and no quarantine tank. I don't want to see any of the critters die but at the same time I don't want to see the fish suffer, either. Currently only one fish is showing signs of ich and it comes and goes every few days.

I've used garlic juice, the kind you buy at the supermarket and I've tried Garlic Elixir and they both seem to curtail the outbreak when it happens.

Thanks for your words of advice and for the help. I do understand what all of you are saying and I know now that I should have had a QT in place when I got started. It is in the works, but I know that when I put the fish back in the display tank, things will start over again. I'm leary of trying things like Kick-Ich and No-Ich.

Thanks again.

 

[Westwood]

Originally posted by Westwood:

I'm in the same position as you, with no hospital tank and no quarantine tank. I don't want to see any of the critters die but at the same time I don't want to see the fish suffer, either. Currently only one fish is showing signs of ich and it comes and goes every few days.

I've used garlic juice, the kind you buy at the supermarket and I've tried Garlic Elixir and they both seem to curtail the outbreak when it happens.

Thanks for your words of advice and for the help. I do understand what all of you are saying and I know now that I should have had a QT in place when I got started. It is in the works, but I know that when I put the fish back in the display tank, things will start over again. I'm leary of trying things like Kick-Ich and No-Ich.

Incase you'd like info about Garlic Elixir you can check out this web site: Hope this isn't against the rules.

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/index.html


Thanks again.

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Westwood ]</p>

 

[Terry B]

Randy,
Most hobbyists don't know the difference between salinity and specific gravity. Heck, most of them don't even use the correct terms. That is why I always mention both specific gravity and salinity when I talk about hyposalinity.
Terry B

 

[randy holmes-farley]

Terry:

I agree, but I think hobbyists may also be mislead by the specific gravity values in your post. If followed literally, people could take your advice and treat with ppt values ranging from below 12 ppt to above 16 ppt. If you are comfortable with that, then there's no problem. If you think 11 ppt is too low, then I'd suggest changing the specific gravity comments, or leave them out completely.

 

[Stark]

Randy,
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you suggesting that Terry is confusing hobbyists by quoting specific gravity rather than salinity?