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mweber

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I just recently rebuilt my 180. I had 4" of CC with 2" of Oolite on top. My system is 2 years old and I couldnt get my nitrates below 20. Since I had to move the tank anyway, I put in a Jaubert plenum with a few minor variations. I placed about 40 bioballs on 4" centers in the plenum and I inserted a sampling tube. I have been monitoring my Oxygen in the plenum. For the first 4 days the plenum had the same Oxy as the tank 7ppm After 1 week the plenum was at 3.5. I have not checked the nitrates yet.
My theory is that when I get the proper limited convection through the Plenum I will have about 50% of top water nitrates.
My questions; What Oxygen and nitrate levels should I be trying to achieve?
 

Nathan1

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Zero for both.

Oxygen kills anerobic bacteria. Anerobic bacteria convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. So ideally there should be no oxygen, which will allow these bacterias to colonise, and no nitrate since the bacteria should instantly consume it and convert it to nitrogen gas.

That's why many people have abandoned the "plenum" concept and have adopted a fine-grain deep sand bed (DSB).

-Nathan
 

myaquarium

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This limits the nutrients reaching the system and, thus, limiting the amount bacterial metabolism, and compromising dissolution of hermatypic ions from the breakdown of the aragonitic sandbed.

Yeah..what he said
icon_smile.gif


I too have a plenum. I was told to have 2 power heads on my uplift tubes (from UGF) to act as filtration. What about this scenario? Does the plenum still work? Am i looking for trouble? Essentially I have 1/2" pvc pipe on the bottom, with a UGF on top and about 3-5" of CaribSea special grade sand. I use two Hagen 402's on the uplift tubes.


This has been running for about 4 months now with no problems, nothing below my gravel is see's the lights at all.
--Andy

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: myaquarium ]
 

Coraltank

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myaquarium,With those powerheads on your lift tube you are simulating the underground filter technology.It won't act as a denitratifying device because it will draw water too quickly thru your sand.The water will never loose the oxygen in it to activate
any anaerobic bacteria.You tank will probably
start building nitrates soon that won't decrease over time like a tank with plenum or deep sand bed will.
 

myaquarium

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So should I remove the uplift tubes and fill them in, thus giving me essentially a DSB with a plenum under it? I think I have about 4" or so of CaribSea special grade as a substrate right now. What do you all think? Right now I dont have any other filter other than the UGF. I have an old wet/dry that was converted to a sump just for pushing more current into the water. Will I need something more for filtration? I read not to add a skimmer to a plenum style system. What are my options as I dont want to go spend anymore money on filtration.

I currently have about 80+lbs of good live rock with coraline all over it in a 70 gallon tank.

--Andy
 

Coraltank

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myaquarium,first the lift tube should go.You could leave the sampling tube.What you'd be left with is not a deep sand bed,just a plenum system.The size sand you have in there
is FOR a plenum,not a DSB.I'll give you a link that will help you understand it(hopefully).Yes, you can add a skimmer to a
plenum system,just DON'T add the one in the article(Skilter)it's not a good one.Here ya go...http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... Handy.html (HTH)
 

SPC

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I never owned an under gravel filter but was just wondering if it is a good idea to shut it down all at once? Is there a chance for a new cycle to take place with this approach?
Steve
 
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Anonymous

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Yes, you can add a skimmer to a plenum system
Not if you want it to function as a true Jaubert. Reread what I initially posted about carbon input, skimmers, and hermatypic ion liberation. Its a shame that all these "variations" of the system are being perpetuated. Unlike most other "systems" (ie, Berlin, Eng, ATS), the Jaubert system can't have alterations without actually working against the system.
 

Coraltank

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galleon,wasn't the true Jaubert system connected to the ocean with daily input and exhust to the surrounding waters of Monaco Bay?
 

Coraltank

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My mistake.From Seascope Volume 14..."There has been debate about whether these tanks are
actually closed systems.They are at least partly open and many get as much as a 10% water change with ocean water each week.This further reduces any buildup of nutrients."
 
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Anonymous

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Nathan, actually, oxygen levels within the plenum space should be about .5 mg/L. Anaerobic bacteria are not killed by oxygen. They need it to survive. They utilize the oxygen from nitrate, along with some nitrogen as an energy source, and thus leave the leftover nitrogen to form gas. However, when oxygen is present, they no longer breakdown nitrate, they utilizerd the dissolved oxygen in the surrounding environment for respiration and often resort to dissolved carbon as a primary food source. The problem with a sampling tube in the Jaubert system is that it allows high oxygen bulk water to reach the plenum space and lower sandbed much too easily. Also, research institutions aren't abandoning the Jaubert Microcean (the true system based on the patent and conversation with Jaubert), they utilize it (and praise it highly) for its ecological soundness. Hobbyists seem to be the only ones dumping the plenum idea, which is often setup incorrectly in hobbyists systems.
mweber, another contribution to high oxygen concentration in the plenum may be through algae growth in the plenum/sandbed area. This is often where aquarists make mistakes with the system. Is any light allowed into the sides of the sandbed or in the system at all? If it is, fix it, make sure no light enters below the top of sanbed (beyond whats obviously exposed at the top of the sandbed)or under the tank. Also, no protein skimmer on these systems either. This limits the nutrients reaching the system and, thus, limiting the amount bacterial metabolism, and compromising dissolution of hermatypic ions from the breakdown of the aragonitic sandbed.
Chris

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: galleon ]
 
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Anonymous

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The display systems at Nice are semi-open. Jaubert's original experimental systems were not.
 

mweber

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Galleon, thanks for your answer on the Oxy. Does my theory on the 50% of top water nitrate level seem reasonable?

At this time I do have light available to my plenum on 3 sides. I will address that in the next day or 2. I am running a protien skimmer, and am fearful of shutting it off. I don't think my sampling tube is hurting anything in that it is a 1/4" plastic tube securely mounted with the end terminating outside the tank. When I wish to test the plenum I draw out about 1/4 cup and replug it.
What I don't understand is turning off the skimmer. It seems this would greatly increase my DOCs and ultimately my nitrates. True it would make more food avaliable for the anarobics but would also increase their assignment.
Why are the rules different for DSB? It seems to me that a DSB with CC at the bottom is really just a Plenum with CC in it.
 
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Anonymous

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My allusion to variations meant adding other specific methodologies to the system that detract from its original purpose in a completely closed system. When you open a system to natural seawater, things change drastically to the better, regardless of the system you are using, because of the dilution factor and NSW ionic components added. At Nice, on exchanging systems, they weren't even using the system as described in the patent and originally developed in theory, based on the rate of exchange.
 
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Anonymous

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mweber, I should have an article online at thereeftank.com in a few days describing the system in greater detail, and I encourage you to read it once its up. One of the points specifically touched on is why the use of protein skimmer is NOT helpful in a Jaubert system. In short, you need those DOC's to support bacterial metabolism in all levels of the oxygen gradient in the sandbed. The sampling tube is plugged? Then you're right, its probably not affecting your oxygen concentration in the plenum much. Though, your readings are high, I would hypothesis that it is do to autotroph culture in the areas of your sandbed/plenum exposed to light. As I said earlier, it shouldn't exceed .5-1.5 mg/L (ppm).
 

mweber

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I have now been operating without my skimmer and with light blocked off to the plenum for about 3.5 weeks. My Plenum is running 2ppm oxygen and 17 ppm nitrate. The tank is running 7ppm oxy and 10 nitrate. I have done several huge water changes that are responsible for my nitrate drop. The fact that my nitrates are higher in the plenum than the tank indicate to me that the plenum is not doing it's job.

Questions:

Is 3.5 weeks to short, or do I have too much convection through my plenum? My readings have been stable for over 1 week.

I can pull the tape back and see many shrimp and pods and worms in it. Have any of you seen inside a sucessfully operating plenum? Is there enought oxy to support bugs?
 

randy holmes-farley

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Chris:

I'm trying to understand your comments about skimmers and plenum systems.

What nutrients are potentially being limited by the skimmer that impact the plenum in a negative fashion, and what end point effect of the plenum system are you using to judge whether it is "effective" or not?

Are you just talking about organics? If so, do most skimmers take them down below levels where the plenum is "effective"? Diid someone measure this? If so, does that mean that plenum systems are only suitable where one can accept a high soluble organic content? And does that requirement for high soluble orgnaics limit the types of organisms that can be optimally kept?

Second question: without a skimmer, how would you go about removing all of the added phosphorus? Would macroalgal growth be the only way?

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: Randy Holmes-Farley ]

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: Randy Holmes-Farley ]
 
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Anonymous

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Hi Randy.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
If so, do most skimmers take them down below levels where the plenum is "effective"?
I agree with you that it depends on the specific context of what you want to know. If you're talking about eliminating nitrogenous nutrients, than no, a skimmer does not make this function ineffective, as the rate of nutrient utilization/elimination will balance with the nutrient load available to the bacteria, such is the case in any system, where everything down to the zooxanthellae populations utilizing ambient nitrogen for mitosis/population growth, etc, determines how much the bacteria get. However, with the Microcean system, personally, I consider it effective when it follows the course to the end product Prof. Jaubert originally got (and still gets in his completely closed experiments), high energy, oligotrophic, coral reef quality water; ie, levels of alkalinity, calcium, nitrogen that correspond with this description; all of these things being a direct or indirect function of the bacterial, bioturbation, and diffusion activity of the Jaubert sandbed and the "plenum" space underneath. When I discuss the use of skimmers, yes, I am referring to the removal of organic nutrients that can be handled ecologically by the system and its inhabitants; of which a portion (that which is not used in maintenance/growth of photosynthetic organisms, etc.) makes it to the end of the system, ie, nitrogen is utilized by the bacteria in the oxygen poor area of the sandbed gradient, thus, where these processes produce metabolic acids, thus breaking down the aragonitic sandbed to its components. Using a protein skimmer interferes with the above described consideration of "effectiveness" through eliminating organic material prior to its use ecologically, and thus, curbs the amount of bacterial metabolism, of which a high amount is necessary to keep calcium, alkalinty, etc. at adequate levels (ie, resonating those of coral reefs). re: the concentration of organics, this does not compromise the oligotrophic habits of high energy reef organisms, at least not in my experience, due to populations of mineralizing bacteria (along with other organisms that use organic compounds) expanding in the high oxygen area of the sandbed gradient to compensate for the increased load. The problem is, the skimmer is more efficient, in a function of time, than mineralizing bacteria. Thus, with a skimmer, you either never allow enough mineralizing bacteria population to even worry about efficiency (or you reduce populations by adding a skimmer later in the game), and, in the end, disallowing adequete levels of calcium, alk, etc. (Or you have to feed much much more than you would without a skimmer to achieve them, but this is very redundant, and I would consider it a potential danger based on the quirks of skimmer function I have dealt with in the past). Phosphorus is handled by use of densely stocking photosynthetic organisms into systems. Zooxanthellae have been underestimated for this capacity, and any manner of foraminiferans, and relatively natural population densities of algae (even though, in theory, a paradox is created by fueling growth of calcareous algae in respects to the system's need for the inherently enriching food to liberate calcium and carbonate, the rates of utilization and accretion are not relative direct reciprocals, so it works out in practice), rapidly growing microalgae, any algae/utilizing organisms in the sediment and in the system, as well as grazing animals keeping it in cycle, can handle phosphorus adequetly, in my experience. However, I enjoy a healthy biodiversity of algae, in that, while some species may produce alkaline phosphatase, and others may utilize mostly soluble reactive phosphate. As the pathways are numerous for phosphorous, so can be our methods of ecologically utilizing it in the reef aquarium.
Best,
Chris

[ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: galleon ]
 

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