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judyb

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Among the many mistakes I realize I've already made with my tank is that I did not add live sand in the beginning (06-Sept-2001). Should I add some now or is it too late? How about Wonder Mud? Would that be a good thing to add?

Tank specs: 20 gal with about 20 lbs live rock, a coral banded shrimp, three yellow tailed damsels, three feather dusters, four hermit crabs and three or four astra snails, Skilter 250 and one powerhead.

If I add to the substrate, how much should I add?

Two of the feather dusters sit on the substrate now, should I move them up on the rock if I add to the substrate?

Should I just leave well enough alone and not add substrate at this point?

Thanks for advice about this.
 

SPC

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Judy, what kind of substrate do you currently have? The reason I ask this is that certain substrates will actually kill the animals you are trying to keep alive in the sand. For example, sharp edges of crushed coral will cut some animals. Also the grain size of the substrate matters in order to get the full benefit of the nitrification process. So, adding live sand to crushed coral would not be productive.
Steve
 

judyb

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When I first set up the tank I just took the advice of the salesperson so I have crushed coral. That's bad? If so, should I try to remove/replace it? Can I add sand over it? (I'm grasping for something easy with that one)
 

Scottis24

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Judy,
I just went from Crushed oyster shells to sugar sized Aragonite from carib sea. Much more of a PITA to do than I expected. But I guess thats what I get for assuming. A full change will take a while, say at least a day. If you have a place to keep the rock and livestock go for it, if not I might leave well enough alone. You will need to wash the sand well and expect to change your prefilter a bunch. IF you can do a complete water change that would help since you won't have sand suspended in the water for about 6-10 hours like I ran into. I'd do it like this, move the rock/livestock. Drain the tank, scoop out the coral, rinse the tank and then lay your bottom. Then aquascape your rocks and refill with RO/DI saltwater, taking care to not stir up the sand or you will have a white mess till it settles A bowl placed on the bottom would work well for this (an old FW trick) or run it over the rock slowly and let it trickle down. Just my opinion though. I like the way the sand looks compared to the shell bottom, much more natural.
 

Leslie

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I heard (translated: take it with a big grain of salt), that over time, "dead" sand will become live sand. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Makes sense to me...the critters that hitch hike in the LR will move to the sand, reproduce.. But I put live sand over crushed coral, and what a mess. Fortunately nothing died, but I wouldn't do it again. But if I did get the bug, I'd pour over rocks, a plate, and anything else anyone suggested to keep the new substrate from clouding the water, and I'd add a quart or so at a time! I repeat: what a mess.
 

judyb

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This doesn't sound too promising.

I was also worried that if I just add the live sand to the tank it would harm the critters that I have.

Seems that I read a post where someone added the live sand by putting it in a baggy and letting it ooze out, but I don't know if that was over crushed coral or some other substrate. Anyone else tried that.

And I would just end up burying part of my live rock if I added over the crushed coral? That sound's lethal and maybe stinky too. I have a tiny baby feather duster at the base of some rock -- I'd hate to smother it. But maybe I'm being too timid.

I'll never listen to the retail sales guy again. (I just love to blame someone else for my stupid moves.)
 

SPC

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Posted by Judy:
(I just love to blame someone else for my stupid moves.)

Don't we all
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.
Judy, if you do a search on this board under replacing sand bed you should find quite a few threads about this. The info that Scott posted is a good method and is what most people do. I hate to tell you this, but if you don't replace it all it will never function correctly.
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I used oolithic sand for my sand bed which is dry sand. I then ordered a kit from IPSF to seed the sand, you can also get a scoop or two of sand from fellow reefers to do this. According to the sand bed experts the life that is on the rocks is not the same as what lives in the sand.
Steve
 

danmhippo

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Adding on to SPC. If your old CC sand bed is full of life, then let's not waste it. Scoop a stocking full of old gravel (make sure you wash the old ones really well before you put into your tank...& make sure it is disease free.....hehehe), or two, and lay them on top of your new sand bed. Within in a week, whatever that was in the old CC (now in the nylon stocking) will crawl out into the new sand.

Also, Yes, if you are using LR, dead sand will eventually becomes live sand as well. That's why people would go for Home Depot's South Down Sand.
 

SPC

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Posted by Steve:
According to the sand bed experts the life that is on the rocks is not the same as what lives in the sand.

OK Dan, how about reading my WHOLE post.
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Steve
 

Scottis24

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Hippo's got a valid point about Seeding the sand. In FW thats what you do to help cycle your new gravel quicker. Forgot all about that method. Thanks man for the reminder
 

Scottis24

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one other thing, I would deffinatley not pour it over your live stock. Unless you go with a very coarse grade of sand some will invaribly become suspended and end up everywhere. Trust me on this I had to take all of my rock out rinse it to get the settled sand off of it. I tried to blow it off with a powerhead but that started to stir everything up again. However the pain is worth getting rid of the CC bottom. Again since you have feather dusters please don't dump sand on them, they're too pretty.
 

danmhippo

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What Steve......I can't see so well!
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(Hmm, I don't know about the bacteria, but whatever that was in the sand, I have always find some underneath the rocks laying on top of the sand......

Well, maybe I am not the "expert"!)
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judyb

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Thanks for all y'all's input, but I'm feeling dumber by the minute. I will look at other posts about this, but can someone give me an idea how to do this? Something like "Changing Your Substrate for Complete Idiots"??

Is scooping the CC out the best way to go? Siphon maybe? Some of it is quite fine and sand-like, but I think it's too heavy to siphon.

Do I have to remove everything -- rock, fish, featherdusters -- before I put in the sand? Does it sound reasonable to start on one side and work to the other and do this over several days? Does this going to mean my tank will recycle?

I'm going to do some more research, but I appreciate the replies and advice.
 

BReefCase

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I may be in the minority here, but my experience is that gradually changing from CC (Crushed Coral) substrate to a DSB (Deep Sand Bed) could not be simpler. No need to drain the tank or remove anything, except maybe for moving the fan worms to higher ground during "construction."

Detailed instructions for the changeover are below, but first one vital caveat: if your crushed coral bed is deeper than about an inch, there is some small but finite possibility that disturbing it may release poisonous decay byproducts into the tank and wipe it out. Any scent of rotten egg smell in the substrate is a warning sign, but such a smell need not be present for there to be a problem. (By the way, this would be a concern even if you decided to just scoop out the CC all at once.)

Decide carefully first if you choose to risk this. The alternative is to break down the tank, replace the substrate, and change all the water.

If you want to proceed, do the following. Get a vinyl one-inch bore siphon hose, some "oolitic" aragonite "sugar" sand, a plastic kitchen funnel, and some rigid airline tube that is a snug fit on the funnel outlet and long enough to reach the bottom of the tank.

The idea is to work in small areas, giving things a day or a week or a month as you choose between sections. It doesn't matter, but more time between sections is safer and will let any life in the CC migrate into the new DSB as you go. There is no rush.

Siphon out a small strip of your crushed coral three or four inches wide. (Almost all CC of reasonable size can be siphoned through a inch-bore hose -- if the tank empties too much, just keep putting the siphoned-out water back, using tank water or new salt water to prime the hose.) You can leave the CC under the live rock alone, or lift out one piece of rock each "session" and do under it.

With the CC removed from the small area you are working in this session, put the new sugar sand into the funnel and use tank water to wash it down the airline tubing. Dip water from the tank and pour it into the funnel cup, letting it force the sand down the tube.

Dry sand will NOT pour -- it has to get wet in the funnel cup before it will go down into the tank. I use sand out of the bag with no rinsing and have never had trouble. (If small amounts of lite twig-like organic matter float up to the top out of the new sand, just net them out and discard them.)

You want to keep the end of the tube right on the bottom of the tank so the sand doesn't fall free through the water column and cloud things up, but is deposited directly on the bottom. Just lay the sand into the trench you made. Ultimately you want your new sand bed several inches deep, but for now make it only as deep as you can pile it up without it spilling over into adjoining areas of CC too badly.

If all goes well, repeat this process each session until you have done the whole tank. Once all the CC is gone, work on deepening the DSB to full depth by regularly piling new sand in the front corners and letting the critters in the tank distribute it over time until the bed is up to depth. Lift live rock up a bit if the base gets buried too much. The idea is to add depth very gradually, giving any live critters time to move up and not get buried deeper than they like.

And that's it. Not much fuss and fun to boot.
 

fsa

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Don't know what your plans are for future tank inhabitants, but sounds like your tank is fine now. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I wouldn't just add DSB just because it is the "now" thing to do. If everything is fine and parameters are good why bother changing it? But if you are going to be adding lots more stuff, then changing to a DSB probably is the way to go. From all I've read, you don't want to put sand over the CC. You will need to remove the CC before putting in the sand. Good Luck on whatever you decide.
 

judyb

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Bless you, BReefcase.

I had decided last night while looking at my tank to try something similar to your instructions though I didn't know exactly how to proceed, so I am absolutely delighted at your detailed plan. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

My CC is about one inch deep, so maybe I'll be okay. If I proceed slowly as you suggest, I can hopefully detect developing problems and I'd still have the option of removing everything at once, though I hadn't thought of their being problem gases trapped in the CC. I don't want to kill what I have as I feet quite attached (no pun intended) to even the little sea squirts on the rock.

fsa, I would like to add a couple peppermint shrimp and some mushrooms but not until I do some more research. Also, I like to watch all the little creatures on the live rock and thought that adding the DSB would enhance the number of things that would be alive in the tank. Does that sound reasonable, or would more livestock be too much for my small tank?

I think I will have to upgrade my lighting before adding the mushrooms (I have one actinic (sp?) bulb now -- I don't remember the wattage). Other hitchhiking creatures include a 4+ inch bristleworm, two cup-like polyps, and two bivalves of some sort.

Again, thank y'all for your input. I'm feeling better about this.
 

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