I'm fairly new at all of this. I have started to dose kalkwasser into my aquarium at night. I've got a 35-gal hex and have added a 16 fl oz mayonaisse jar full of it a couple of times now. After the first time, I noticed several bleach white flecks and spots appear on my live rock and then more after the second time. Is this normal?
Kalkwasser
- Thread starter llowwelll
- Start date
No this is not normal! You can't just mix and add, you have to let it settle then take out the liquid between material that settles on the bottom and the scum on the top. A good way to do this is to go to walmart and get a drinking container with a spout or spiget. Mix the kalk in the container after it settles out, about 4 hours or so drain the container into another container getting only the liquid between the settled kalk and scum on top. Got to your Vet. and ask if you can purchase an IV tube kit. Use this IV kit to drip the kalk over night works just fine. Walmart has drinking containers anywhere from 1-5 gallons choose the one that will be right for you.
How much do you mix into the 16 oz of water? Maybe you are adding too much? I know most people here use a teaspoon to a gallon of water, but since my tank has a few (oh, alright, quite a few) I only use about a teaspoon (somewhat heaping teaspoon, not level) to 3 gallons. That three gallons lasts me about a day an a half as a top off (continuously) on my 75g.
llowell: When Calcium Hydroxide solution (Kalkwasser) is slowly dripped into your aquarium, it captures free Carbon Dioxide present in the tank water and converts it to Bicarbonate ions (which is a good thing), like this:
Ca++ + 2(OH-) + 2(CO2) <==> Ca++ + 2(HCO3-)
If you drip too fast or if there is not enough Carbon Dioxide available in the water, your shiny new Bicarbonate ions will be converted to Carbonate ions (a bad thing), like this:
Ca++ + 2(OH-) + 2(HCO3-) <==> Ca++ + 2(CO3--) + 2 H2O
The Carbonate ions formed will make the Ca++ you are trying to add to your tank get wasted by the useless precipitation of Calcium Carbonate -- the white stuff you are seeing.
So, too rapid addition of Kalk may actually cause the Calcium and Alkalinity in your tank to go DOWN instead of UP (a bad thing), like this:
Ca++ + 2(HCO3-) + Ca++ + 2(OH-) <==> 2 CaCO3 + 2 H2O
In the above reaction, a Calcium ion and two Bicarbonate ions from the aquarium combine to form solid calcium carbonate -- the white stuff you are getting in your tank, which is really just a kind of sand.
This can happen even with a slow drip of Kalk if there is not enough CO2 in your water -- something you can't easily control.
To avoid this, try mixing and adding your Kalkwasser like this: pour 15ml of 5% Acetic Acid (or ordinary Distilled White Vinegar from the grocery store -- same thing) into a 1 liter (1 quart) container. Dissolve 1/2 teaspoon of lab-grade Ca(OH)2 (or commercial Kalkwasser mix) in the Acetic Acid, and then dilute to 1 liter (1 quart) volume with either RO/DI water, or even tank water.
15 ml is more Vinegar than some people are comfortable with, but I use it constantly with no problems. There should be no sediment in the mixture, or just a little bit at most. You can let the sediment settle out if you don't like the white flakes in your tank. I just drip the liquid and the sediment both into my tank.
Dissolving the Kalk powder in the Vinegar first will accomplish several very good things.
First, it will get more Calcium ions (Ca++) into the solution because you are dissolving the Ca(OH)2 in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate, which exists as a dissociated equilibrium of free Calcium ions and Acetate ions.
Second, the Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating the newly-added Calcium ions as useless white Calcium Carbonate powder.
Third, after all the cool Calcium ion chemistry is over, the leftover Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar leaves you with free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank so that it converts more poisonous Nitrates to NO2 gas (a very good thing).
Adding Vinegar in Kalkwasser is one of the few win-win situations for reefers -- it has a great up side and I've yet to encounter a down side to doing it. I don't know why so few reefers do it -- lack of understanding of the chemistry behind it maybe -- but a lot more are starting now that some respected reef writers have discovered it and have recommended it and even written up detailed instructions for it.
By the way, you should check your pH before and after you do this the first few times to make sure it is not affected by the process. It should not be a problem. Also, if you don't already have them, get and learn to use Salifert test kits for Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium. The levels of all of these are related and affected by dripping Kalk.
Good luck.
[ August 18, 2001: Message edited by: BReefCase ]
Ca++ + 2(OH-) + 2(CO2) <==> Ca++ + 2(HCO3-)
If you drip too fast or if there is not enough Carbon Dioxide available in the water, your shiny new Bicarbonate ions will be converted to Carbonate ions (a bad thing), like this:
Ca++ + 2(OH-) + 2(HCO3-) <==> Ca++ + 2(CO3--) + 2 H2O
The Carbonate ions formed will make the Ca++ you are trying to add to your tank get wasted by the useless precipitation of Calcium Carbonate -- the white stuff you are seeing.
So, too rapid addition of Kalk may actually cause the Calcium and Alkalinity in your tank to go DOWN instead of UP (a bad thing), like this:
Ca++ + 2(HCO3-) + Ca++ + 2(OH-) <==> 2 CaCO3 + 2 H2O
In the above reaction, a Calcium ion and two Bicarbonate ions from the aquarium combine to form solid calcium carbonate -- the white stuff you are getting in your tank, which is really just a kind of sand.
This can happen even with a slow drip of Kalk if there is not enough CO2 in your water -- something you can't easily control.
To avoid this, try mixing and adding your Kalkwasser like this: pour 15ml of 5% Acetic Acid (or ordinary Distilled White Vinegar from the grocery store -- same thing) into a 1 liter (1 quart) container. Dissolve 1/2 teaspoon of lab-grade Ca(OH)2 (or commercial Kalkwasser mix) in the Acetic Acid, and then dilute to 1 liter (1 quart) volume with either RO/DI water, or even tank water.
15 ml is more Vinegar than some people are comfortable with, but I use it constantly with no problems. There should be no sediment in the mixture, or just a little bit at most. You can let the sediment settle out if you don't like the white flakes in your tank. I just drip the liquid and the sediment both into my tank.
Dissolving the Kalk powder in the Vinegar first will accomplish several very good things.
First, it will get more Calcium ions (Ca++) into the solution because you are dissolving the Ca(OH)2 in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate, which exists as a dissociated equilibrium of free Calcium ions and Acetate ions.
Second, the Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating the newly-added Calcium ions as useless white Calcium Carbonate powder.
Third, after all the cool Calcium ion chemistry is over, the leftover Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar leaves you with free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank so that it converts more poisonous Nitrates to NO2 gas (a very good thing).
Adding Vinegar in Kalkwasser is one of the few win-win situations for reefers -- it has a great up side and I've yet to encounter a down side to doing it. I don't know why so few reefers do it -- lack of understanding of the chemistry behind it maybe -- but a lot more are starting now that some respected reef writers have discovered it and have recommended it and even written up detailed instructions for it.
By the way, you should check your pH before and after you do this the first few times to make sure it is not affected by the process. It should not be a problem. Also, if you don't already have them, get and learn to use Salifert test kits for Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium. The levels of all of these are related and affected by dripping Kalk.
Good luck.
[ August 18, 2001: Message edited by: BReefCase ]
bReefcase, thanks for the detailed post. I have had a hard time understanding the calcium thing before your explanation. I have been dripping kalk for a long time and learned something tonight.
On the note of vinegar, I have used it for a while with no negative results, except for the fact of some sand clumping in the 4 in. sand bed. Minor stirring of the sand occationally takes care of that. I have used vinegar at the rate of 4ml per liter, mabe a little more as the days progressed.
On the note of vinegar, I have used it for a while with no negative results, except for the fact of some sand clumping in the 4 in. sand bed. Minor stirring of the sand occationally takes care of that. I have used vinegar at the rate of 4ml per liter, mabe a little more as the days progressed.
- Location
- Virginia
So that's what happened with the people who paid attention in chemistry class when I was busy throwing rubber stoppers at my friends and lighting things on fire...
Actually, very nice and detailed post, I never really understood too much about why I dripped calcium, only that it was good for my inhabitants.
As far as what the white flecks are, I think I might agree with the post that said it was coralline algae depending on how it looks. If it seems to be attached to your rock, then that's what I think.
Actually, very nice and detailed post, I never really understood too much about why I dripped calcium, only that it was good for my inhabitants.
As far as what the white flecks are, I think I might agree with the post that said it was coralline algae depending on how it looks. If it seems to be attached to your rock, then that's what I think.
Hi. I'm not much good at chemistry anymore, so I've got a question. Previous info I've read regarding the preparation of Kalk suggests that it's best to minimize the mixing of the Kalkwasser solution with C02 to prevent the fomation of calcium carbonate, which will then percipitate out of solution. Seems contrary to what's been posited by Breefcase. What's going on here? Do I have bad info or incomplete info? Anyway, the idea sounds intriguing... I'll have to study a bit more to satisfy my curiosity now!
Another question:
Would there be any benifit in using asorbic acid (Vitamin C) in the place of acetic acid?
Another question:
Would there be any benifit in using asorbic acid (Vitamin C) in the place of acetic acid?
Hey, I should've done a search:
first:http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/oct/bio/default.asp
A nice read.
Seems to answer question #1. BReefcase, much thanks for piqueing curiosity.
...on to question #2.
After reading the article, correcting my spelling of "ascorbic acid" and grabbing another brew-ha, I found that ascorbic acid (C6H806) is a six carbon, glucose structure, easily oxidized in alkaline solutions. Any takers?
first:http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/oct/bio/default.asp
A nice read.
Seems to answer question #1. BReefcase, much thanks for piqueing curiosity.
...on to question #2.
After reading the article, correcting my spelling of "ascorbic acid" and grabbing another brew-ha, I found that ascorbic acid (C6H806) is a six carbon, glucose structure, easily oxidized in alkaline solutions. Any takers?
BReefcase
Great post!! I have 2 questions that maybe you can help with
1. First, is the kalkwasser water more stable this way? Can you mix a weeks worth of top off water and kalk using vinegar and then dose it in throughout the week? For example, mix a couple tablespoons and vinegar and kalk in a 10 gallon container and add it throughout the weel?
2. Can I use this technique with a kalkreactor which I put a pound of kalk in the container and mix with new water through the day? The vinegar woud be in the water that is being mixed in all this kalk.
Thanks, Scott
Great post!! I have 2 questions that maybe you can help with
1. First, is the kalkwasser water more stable this way? Can you mix a weeks worth of top off water and kalk using vinegar and then dose it in throughout the week? For example, mix a couple tablespoons and vinegar and kalk in a 10 gallon container and add it throughout the weel?
2. Can I use this technique with a kalkreactor which I put a pound of kalk in the container and mix with new water through the day? The vinegar woud be in the water that is being mixed in all this kalk.
Thanks, Scott
I have the same two questions as outerbank plus one, which requires a little thread background.
You (Breefcase) stated that you have not observed any ill effects with using 15mL acetic acid in your kalkswasser, but smokin reefer has observed clumping of his sand (I assume that it is aragonite) using as little as 4 mL of vinegar. Could it be that you have not experienced any negative repercussions because you use a different substrate?
I am very interested in applying your excellent insight, but have a deep concern for the health of my (aragonite) sand bed.
BTW-
polyp... it'll take quite a few more brew-ha's and a lot of research for me to take you up on the ascorbic acid challenge!
Joe Mac
You (Breefcase) stated that you have not observed any ill effects with using 15mL acetic acid in your kalkswasser, but smokin reefer has observed clumping of his sand (I assume that it is aragonite) using as little as 4 mL of vinegar. Could it be that you have not experienced any negative repercussions because you use a different substrate?
I am very interested in applying your excellent insight, but have a deep concern for the health of my (aragonite) sand bed.
BTW-
polyp... it'll take quite a few more brew-ha's and a lot of research for me to take you up on the ascorbic acid challenge!
Joe Mac
Polyp -- Actually, you don't have contrary information at all. The advice not to mix the Kalk too much is right on target. As the equations I posted show, if you are not using any Vinegar in the mix you certainly DO need to avoid mixing the Kalk powder with CO2 until AFTER it's dripped into the tank.
Look again at the equations. Both the GOOD reaction that liberates useful Calcium ions (Ca++) into your tank, and the BAD reaction that wastes the Calcium ions as solid Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3), require the addition of different amounts of CO2.
The problem with allowing the CO2 reaction to occur as you mix your Kalk in a container without Vinegar is that you are mixing it in a comparatively small quantity of water that contains only a very limited amount of CO2. So, instead of having enough CO2 to go all the way to useful Bicarbonate ions (HCO3-, or Alkalinity) as you want it to, the chemical reaction stops at the undesirable Carbonate ion (CO3--). This is what sets the stage for the Calcium ions to precipitate out as useless solid Calcium Carbonate while still in the mixing container -- the Kalk mixes with SOME CO2, but not with ENOUGH CO2.
If your mixing container contained ample CO2, i.e., enough to fully react all the Kalkwasser as Bicarbonate ions, you would indeed then want to do all the mixing with CO2 right there in the container. It's only because there's not enough CO2 present in the small container that you need to limit the mixing to avoid precipitation.
So, you've actually hit on one good reason WHY we want to add the Vinegar to the mixing container -- the Acetic Acid in the Vinegar provides the equivalent of enough CO2 to take the reaction all the way to the desired end products for which we drip Kalk -- that is, to produce free Calcium ions and free Bicarbonate ions in solution in our tanks.
By using enough Vinegar, we can mix to our heart's content right in the container, and don't need to worry as much about dripping the solution slowly into the tank. We have already driven the reaction all the way to the desired outcome, and provided ample CO2 to produce a balance of free Calcium ions and free Bicarbonate ions. This, incidentally, is why Kalk is said to be "ionically balanced" - it produces a one-to-one balance between Calcium and Alkalinity.
By the way, the "stoichiometric" amount of Vinegar, i.e., that amount that provides the exact equivalent of enough CO2 to react all the Kalk powder to Calcium and Bicarbonate, turns out to be about 25ml of 5% Acetic Acid per liter of saturated (0.02 moles/liter or 1.5 grams/liter) aqueous Calcium Hydroxide solution (Kalkwasser). I've used 30ml of Vinegar to a ½ teaspoon of Ca(OH)2 per liter of mix without any problem, but recommend about 15ml to those new to using Vinegar. This means that you still need to go easy on the stirring, because we are not providing quite enough equivalent CO2 to avoid SOME Carbonate ion formation if we get carried away with the mixing.
As to your question about using Vitamin C (L-Ascorbic Acid, or L-3-Ketothreohexuronic Acid Lactone) instead of Acetic Acid, its chemical formula is C6H8O6, compared to C2H4O2 (commonly written CH3COOH) for Acetic Acid. The real story for us here though is in the atomic STRUCTURE of the two, rather than just in their FORMULAS.
While Acetic Acid is essentially just an Acetate ion (CH3CO2-) with an extra Hydrogen atom tacked on, Vitamin C has an alkene ring, 4 alcohols, and an ester in its structure. I can't say with certainty all the complex organic chemistry that dissolving L-Ascorbic Acid would kick off in one's tank, or whether it would be good or bad, but I think I'll let someone else perform that particular experiment.
As to the other questions:
Joe Mac -- Sand compaction can be caused by lots of things - high Calcium concentrations (above 500 ppm) is indeed one of them. I don't think that using Vinegar would cause sand compaction to occur through any new mechanism other than just by permitting the reefer to achieve high Calcium concentrations, and conversely that high Calcium level would cause the same sand compaction no matter how the Calcium level was achieved - with or without Kalk and Vinegar.
My sandbed is a mix of many sizes of Aragonite, with a lot of oolitic or "sugar sand," and I have never noticed compaction. But then, I have so many critters in there up to and including Atlantic Sand Cukes that there is little chance of compaction occurring. The fact that my sand is very alive means that I have to feed my sand so much extra food that I really appreciate the de-Nitrating boost that Vinegar provides, as the leftover organics feed my bacteria bed and really helps get rid of the Nitrates.
Outerbank -- No, I still don't store the Kalkwasser solution pre-mixed, because as I point out, the low Vinegar amounts used aren't quite enough equivalent CO2 to totally prevent some precipitation of Calcium Carbonate, which gets worse with time if the liquid is stored too long.
Finally, as to using Vinegar in a "Kalkreactor," I'm sorry, but I am not familiar with that device.
Look again at the equations. Both the GOOD reaction that liberates useful Calcium ions (Ca++) into your tank, and the BAD reaction that wastes the Calcium ions as solid Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3), require the addition of different amounts of CO2.
The problem with allowing the CO2 reaction to occur as you mix your Kalk in a container without Vinegar is that you are mixing it in a comparatively small quantity of water that contains only a very limited amount of CO2. So, instead of having enough CO2 to go all the way to useful Bicarbonate ions (HCO3-, or Alkalinity) as you want it to, the chemical reaction stops at the undesirable Carbonate ion (CO3--). This is what sets the stage for the Calcium ions to precipitate out as useless solid Calcium Carbonate while still in the mixing container -- the Kalk mixes with SOME CO2, but not with ENOUGH CO2.
If your mixing container contained ample CO2, i.e., enough to fully react all the Kalkwasser as Bicarbonate ions, you would indeed then want to do all the mixing with CO2 right there in the container. It's only because there's not enough CO2 present in the small container that you need to limit the mixing to avoid precipitation.
So, you've actually hit on one good reason WHY we want to add the Vinegar to the mixing container -- the Acetic Acid in the Vinegar provides the equivalent of enough CO2 to take the reaction all the way to the desired end products for which we drip Kalk -- that is, to produce free Calcium ions and free Bicarbonate ions in solution in our tanks.
By using enough Vinegar, we can mix to our heart's content right in the container, and don't need to worry as much about dripping the solution slowly into the tank. We have already driven the reaction all the way to the desired outcome, and provided ample CO2 to produce a balance of free Calcium ions and free Bicarbonate ions. This, incidentally, is why Kalk is said to be "ionically balanced" - it produces a one-to-one balance between Calcium and Alkalinity.
By the way, the "stoichiometric" amount of Vinegar, i.e., that amount that provides the exact equivalent of enough CO2 to react all the Kalk powder to Calcium and Bicarbonate, turns out to be about 25ml of 5% Acetic Acid per liter of saturated (0.02 moles/liter or 1.5 grams/liter) aqueous Calcium Hydroxide solution (Kalkwasser). I've used 30ml of Vinegar to a ½ teaspoon of Ca(OH)2 per liter of mix without any problem, but recommend about 15ml to those new to using Vinegar. This means that you still need to go easy on the stirring, because we are not providing quite enough equivalent CO2 to avoid SOME Carbonate ion formation if we get carried away with the mixing.
As to your question about using Vitamin C (L-Ascorbic Acid, or L-3-Ketothreohexuronic Acid Lactone) instead of Acetic Acid, its chemical formula is C6H8O6, compared to C2H4O2 (commonly written CH3COOH) for Acetic Acid. The real story for us here though is in the atomic STRUCTURE of the two, rather than just in their FORMULAS.
While Acetic Acid is essentially just an Acetate ion (CH3CO2-) with an extra Hydrogen atom tacked on, Vitamin C has an alkene ring, 4 alcohols, and an ester in its structure. I can't say with certainty all the complex organic chemistry that dissolving L-Ascorbic Acid would kick off in one's tank, or whether it would be good or bad, but I think I'll let someone else perform that particular experiment.
As to the other questions:
Joe Mac -- Sand compaction can be caused by lots of things - high Calcium concentrations (above 500 ppm) is indeed one of them. I don't think that using Vinegar would cause sand compaction to occur through any new mechanism other than just by permitting the reefer to achieve high Calcium concentrations, and conversely that high Calcium level would cause the same sand compaction no matter how the Calcium level was achieved - with or without Kalk and Vinegar.
My sandbed is a mix of many sizes of Aragonite, with a lot of oolitic or "sugar sand," and I have never noticed compaction. But then, I have so many critters in there up to and including Atlantic Sand Cukes that there is little chance of compaction occurring. The fact that my sand is very alive means that I have to feed my sand so much extra food that I really appreciate the de-Nitrating boost that Vinegar provides, as the leftover organics feed my bacteria bed and really helps get rid of the Nitrates.
Outerbank -- No, I still don't store the Kalkwasser solution pre-mixed, because as I point out, the low Vinegar amounts used aren't quite enough equivalent CO2 to totally prevent some precipitation of Calcium Carbonate, which gets worse with time if the liquid is stored too long.
Finally, as to using Vinegar in a "Kalkreactor," I'm sorry, but I am not familiar with that device.
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
