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Lynn

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thanks so much everyone. I left the sheet of spec's at my shop, but on Monday I'll get it and post it for you all to see. We have two books..one is that Atlas by Baesnh?? something like that..and one is called Starting your Saltwater Aquarium. The tanks measurement's are..I believe 7feet by 24" x 24". You gotta know my husband to get the feel of this. But this is the type of guy that goes into this store and basically says he wants the best of everything. The dealer (Randy) tell him that most people don't buy all their LR at once, but over a period of time etc. etc. (although he did add that if you can afford it then it's better) Jim (my husband) says figure out the cost of everything, protein skimmer, LR, sump..everthing that we would need to get set up and give us a price. Thats how we got to this point. This also included the guy actually coming out to our acreage and setting the whole thing up and getting it going. Anyways I'll take your advice (I don't need it today) and I'll get the list to you on Monday. Yes, we would like clams. I know Jim was talking to the dealer about the metal halide (thats what he read that we should get) but I think the dealer talked him into these compacts? Also we need to get a distiller at our house and a 50 gallons mixing tank, unless you have any better idea's on this?? I know that stating that I have no interest in the lights, probably bugs a few of you..I certainly don't mean for it to. I compare it to this... if I go out and buy a sports car, what's making the car run doesnt' interest me, but the driving does????
Anyways, you now have my interests in the lights!! By the way I live in Edmonton, Alberta
thanks again.
 

Mabu

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With all due respect, this project is a big accident waiting to happen. You cannot substitute cash for the "best of everything" in lieu of experience.

Every reefer ends up learning the hard way, making mistakes, having lifestock die due to ignorance, happenstance and just plain bad luck. If you want to get into this, start SMALL. Going right away with a huge tank and all that equipment is problemmatic. If you want an anology, I'd compare this to giving a child an automatic weapon as his first rifle when trying to teach him gun safety.

I don't mean to discourage you, but if you are not interested in the equipment, its use and implementation, the biology and science of what you'll be doing, you'd be better served going out and buying some real nice PICTURES of fish and inverts and hanging them on your wall.

This is not a hobby to get into if you are exclusively interested in looking at pretty fish and inverts. It's much more involved than that. The fact that you and your husband are willing to pay someone else to do all the setup is a bad sign... Don't own a tank if you're not willing to set it up yourself and understand & appreciate how every element functions. Besides, building and setting things up is at least half the fun.

Let me make a suggestion if you want to continue. Start small. Set up a 55 gallon tank with a DSB, live rock, a BakPak II skimmer, and put most of your money into a very nice lighting system which should include metal halide lights. Be advised you shouldn't be adding any corals/inverts for at least 2-3 months. It should cost around US$1500. And this setup will give you a good introduction and be able to handle almost anything you'd want. Most importantly, do it yourself - don't have someone set it up for you unless you're going to participate from beginning to end - because at some point, this LFS/employee is going to leave you hanging and you need to know what you're doing.

I hate to be blunt about it because I don't want to discourage your interest in the hobby, but we are talking about live creatures here, many of whom are endangered. It's very important to have the proper attitude and respect for what's involved in this hobby.
 

micagreenmachine

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For the most part, I agree with Mabu here...

<<<Every reefer ends up learning the hard way, making mistakes, having lifestock die due to ignorance, happenstance and just plain bad luck.>>>

I don't quite agree with this statement though. I've seen some very "green" aquarists tackle a reef tank head on and have some pretty incredible success from the beginning. That being said, read on.

<<<The fact that you and your husband are willing to pay someone else to do all the setup is a bad sign... Don't own a tank if you're not willing to set it up yourself and understand & appreciate how every element functions. Besides, building and setting things up is at least half the fun.>>>

I agree 100% here. At the very least, if you're going to pay someone to set it up, get your head under the stand with the guy/girl setting up the plumbing, skimmer, etc... and make sure you understand exactly what (s)he is doing and why.

<<<Let me make a suggestion if you want to continue. Start small. Set up a 55 gallon tank with a DSB, live rock, a BakPak II skimmer, and put most of your money into a very nice lighting system which should include metal halide lights.>>>

Your standard 55 gal tank is a bit narrow for a nice reef (12" or 13" wide). I have a 58 gal tank that has better dimensions (18" wide), but it filled up with stuff really fast. If I had to do it all over again, I'd have started with a 75 gal.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm stepping on your toes Mabu, I didn't mean to. Just wanted to give a slightly different opinion. Like I stated above, I agree with you except for your first statement. Your points were stated so well that I just had to embelish.

~t
 
A

Anonymous

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Sheesh----

She's here asking questions before the thing is even paid for. That is a huge step in the right direction and already better than 75% of most reef owners. You should be able to do what you want the first time, just be sure to read and ask questions and above all don't get in a hurry. Be prepared to have an empty tank for 2-3 months. Think of it as sort of a garden, they take a while to cultivate and tend and the end result is beautiful, if you just threw a bunch of stuff in the dirt it wouldn't work. KNowing stuff ahead of time will save headaches and lots of money flushed down the proverbial toilet.

Glenn
 

Lynn

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Thanks guys, but I still don't agree on the "having someone set it up". We are older semi-retired people and in no way could carry in this sort of tank or equipment. We need the dealer to do this for us. We also need it to be filled with distilled water...in which he has a 200 gallon tank on the back of his truck with a pump. It's not that he would just come in and do it and then leave...he would be teaching us all about how everything works, how to clean it, keep it running etc. I agree we need to understand what each piece of equipment does, and how it runs.
I don't really understand your concept that smaller is better.( We have room for one 7footx 24 or 7foot x 18. ) If we start at a 55 then in 2or 4 years we would probably just be replacing it with a 150/180 or so anyways. I would think you can kill as many fish in a 55 gal as in a larger one, if you don't have a clue of what your doing.
I already stated that we would not add a thing for at least 2-3 months. We're not looking for a instant finished product here. I know even if we had the money to do so, that it would be impossible to have a "done tank". I wouldn't want it any other way. This to me would be the best part. Adding to it bit by bit, researching your next fish or invert. Bringing it home, caring for it, watching it, appreciating its beauty and then when it's time repeating this process.
I had a 75 gallon fresh water tank when I was 25 yrs old. I had it for about 5 years and throughly enjoyed it. Back then I certainly didn't have the top of the line equipment, and back then I had to do it all myself. But now that I don't have to doesn't make me feel that I would appreciate these creatures or have any less respect for them.
I have parrots and I know that when someone asks me about buying one I tell them read,read and read some more. Then go and spend time with the species you like to try to get a idea of what they are all about. "I know where your all coming from".
Why and how would you ever buy endangered specimans???
Lynn
 
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Anonymous

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Sounds like you are on the right track. Let us know if you have any more questions.


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Glenn
 
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Anonymous

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Get some good books/magazines and then make a list of what you want to house in your tank. I found it very rewarding to build this by myself. The knowledge you recieve from doing it yourself,learning from mistakes,and trying to do it better is very rewarding. It will also give you the confidence to maintain a healthy reef tank,as well as a basic knowledge of your system so you know when it looks healthy.

As far as the equipment goes I would get the following:

Tank/stand/canopy(may not need canopy if lighting system is used like a full hood)
sump not wet/dry unless you want to go sumpless
heaters
skimmer
high intensity lighting
powerheads and possibly a wavemaker
sand/gravel/live rock
mechanical filter if you want one

Start with the tank size you want and that will dictate what you need with the rest. The size and shape of the aquarium will dictate the type of lighting that will fit over it(this also assumes you know what specimens you will want to keep a year down the road).

The size of the tank will also tell you how large of a heater(s) you will need. The tank will also give you an idea of the amount of Gallonage moved per hour necessary for a healthy tank. The size will give you an idea of the size of skimmer and/or refugium necessary.

Tell us what size tank you are to get and we can give you the tools or options that are necessary for a tank of that size. You will have a lot of choices to make because you are going to recieve many opinions on lighting,skimmers,heaters,fans....and so on. It will be you decision on what is better for you. What is more pleasing to the eye,better for your wallet,or suits your choice of specimens best.

You have a lot of reading ahead of you and a ton of questions to follow.

Some suggested books are:

The Reef Aquarium Volumes 1@2 by Sprung@Delbeek
Natural Reef Aquariums by John Tullock
The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by R.Fenner
The Coral Reef Aquarium by Dr Ron Shimek


GL

Dan
 

esmithiii

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I disagree with the start small. I say get the largest tank you can afford, just go slow with the process.

I don't think that having someone help you set it up is necessarily a bad idea either. I weigh 220, can do push ups with my wife sitting on my back but sure needed help getting my 180 set up!

My advice is to be as involved as you can. The fact that you have alot of free time will greatly improve your chances of success.

Ernie
 

Mabu

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I think there's a difference between having someone move the equipment to the site and add water, and setting up everything, determining things like the substrate composition, filtration, lighting, etc.. The latter stuff should be the responsibility of the owner, certainly assisted by the LFS, but you need to know enough about those things to know whether the advice you're being given applies to you based on what you want to do with the tank..
 

StirCrazy

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Hi Lynn, I am originaly from Edmonton myself (actualy from a acerage by Leduc) alot of what they guy was going to sell you, ie. the trickel filter, is not needed. with live rock and a deep sand bed you will be fine. the live rock here in Victoria is 10 bucks a lb also but if I order it from J&L aquadics in Vacnouver and have them throw it on the grey hound bus it only costs me 14.00 for shipping and a 50lb box can be had for 5.25/lb plus you get to cure it yourself and retain the critters that come with it. from what I have seen most LFS that cure there own rock for sale pick the good stuff off and sell it seperatly so the rock you get is mostly just rock.
you can brows a few online order places in canada on the net and see how much stuff would be..
and of course if you are not sure about sopmething like what kinda light and how much should i have on my tank just ask everyone in here will be happy to tell you..
icon_smile.gif


Steve
 

Mabu

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First, nobody's trying to bash Lynn here. I'm sure we're all impressed with her attempt to bounce the ideas off this community prior to getting the tank. But if she's asking for our opinions, I think she needs to hear all sides.

Generally speaking, all corals are "endangered". Far be if from me to discourage anyone from getting into this hobby, as any attention we can call to the issue of the world's coral reefs and the amazing creatures that inhabit it is good.

I think a 55g is a perfectly good size for a reef - I don't know any problem with it being too narrow - maybe if you have a particular LR setup that causes problems, but I don't have that.

The problem with the LFS guy is that he's likely more motivated by selling you equipment than anything else. He's going to make the big bucks on the initial sale, and any service thereafter won't be as lucrative or desireable. As a result, the more the LFS does for you, the less capable you may be when problems arise and they need to be dealt with quickly or else bad things happen. Have you seen any established tanks these people have put up? Have you talked with anybody who has a similar setup from them? Do they have the type of tank you're hoping to have in their store? What gives you confidence in this guy's ability to get this tank set up properly for what you want? (Beyond the 200-gallon water tank in his vehicle)

I applaud you for researching things. That's the right way to go. I don't like the idea of paying a LFS to do all the work, but then again, I think that's part of the fun and an important to do yourself to understand how things work.

My feeling on a scenario is this: if you spend all your money in one pop, one of several things is likely to happen: a) everything works out and you're totally happy, b) it doesn't work and you've spent a fortune and now you'll either get discouraged because things didn't work out how you wanted or it's more "work" than you thought, c) you'll end up spending a lot more money replacing, changing and adding things that were not part of the deal. The bottom line here is that you haven't done a reef tank before. You don't really know what you'll want/need in terms of tank, lighting, substrate, etc. You're letting the ONLY LFS in the area that does this stuff guide you. You may find you want to raise certain kinds of fish or creatures and the configuration you have won't work. You may decide that the maintenance required complicates issues such as being able to travel or depend upon others to maintain things. You may find the tank configuration, regardless of its size, just doesn't work for what you want to do, and the bigger the setup, the bigger the problems; the less money you may have to correct things in the future.

Do you know what fish or corals you want to keep? Do you know if among those, they can coexist peacefully? Are you prepared to automatically top-off evaporated water? How is that managed? Are you going to dose Kalk or add a calcium reactor? What about powerheads and water movement? Timers for the lights? Appropriate test kits? An uninterruptable power supply? What about temperature control? Do you have any idea whether the tank will require cooling or how much heating? If you have power or temperature problems, you can kill a lot more creatures and money with a larger tank. Has the LFS or you anticipated all these things?

I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. It's best to "phase in" to the hobby and not blow too much money initially, because of the simple fact that most people do end up changing their minds and/or learning better ways to do things. Going from 0 to 60, and having someone else pick the car and put their foot on the gas pedal isn't something I can wholly endorse, but that's just my opinion - your mileage may vary : )

[ November 11, 2001: Message edited by: Mabu ]</p>
 

Mabu

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My pleasure Lynn. I think it's great that you're asking so many questions. I still feel like I have a lot to learn myself. I encourage you to take it all in and don't subscribe to any single position - everyone has something to offer.

What I might recommend is that you visit other peoples' tanks. Get a feel for what kind of creatures you are most interested in. This will have a significant impact on how you might want to set up your tank, the lighting, temperature conditions, what size tank is best, etc.

There are a wide variety of tank configurations, some are better for certain types of livestock. What your LFS has recommended seems more tuned for fish than inverts, and you're asking questions here among people who are mostly doing reef setups. I wouldn't want you to realize later on that for example, you should have went with a deep sand bed, which might have reduced the need to do water changes substantially in the tank... there are all kinds of issues like that that may come up later... and the bigger the tank, the more difficult it is to change things later.
 

slimy

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Lynn,
I, like your husband, always want the best-of-the-best, and I'm not afraid to spent the extra $$$ on it. Quite frankly, If I can't afford the best-of-the best (which often I can't) I simply go without.
One of the most confusing aspects of this hobby (and one I didn't quite understand until I started reading these boards) is that often times the best-of-the-best are not the most expensive things. In fact, you'll find that people that dump all sorts of crazy, expensive pieces of equipment on their tanks generally have more problems than those who keep it simple. Strange at it may sound, this is a hobby where a Yugo often costs more than a Lexus. Unlike most things, throwing money at a reef tank doesn't solve any problems.
Also, you state that you get a lot of your information from magazines. That's probably not a good idea. Magazines get a lot of money from advertisers. They tend to be biased. They are there to sell you stuff, albiet indirectly. It's not uncommon to see a "review" for a product on the page facing an advertisement for the same product.
As for the issue of trusting an LFS: I won't say you shouldn't trust them, but trust is something that must be earned. Most LFS's I've dealt with have not earned that trust, and a few have given me such blatently incorrect information that they will never earn it. It sounds to me like yours is selling you lots of useless equipment, and charging you a fortune as well.
You're not interested in equipment? Fine. Neither am I. But if you spend a little time on these boards suffering through it, you'll know what equipment to get, you can get it, and you'll never have to read up on it again. There aren't too many things you'll need. It may seem like there's a lot to it, but once you realize that 90% of the equipment out there is either unnecessary or garbage (or both), you'll have less to sift through.
 

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