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Danno

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I'm new to this adventure and I am seeking advice to make sure I'm on track. After a month of reading and reserch I filled my 40gal tank,added 10 lb of live rock,15lb of figi tufa.After a week I added a Yellow Tang and a Chalk Bass at the advice of the local pet store as good starter fish to cycle my tank.The fish are now into their 3rd week,the brown alge is giving way to the red alge. PH 8.2,Ammonia .25, Nitrite 2.0, Nitrate 20
All I'm thinking about adding is a Skunk Shrimp,2 clowns and an Annome. How long should I wait before I add the shrimp and Clowns?
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[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Danno ]</p>
 

danmhippo

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Wait 2 weeks after your tank's ammonia and nitrite registers "0". At then, you can add the cleaner shrimp and clowns. Wait for another 3 months before you put in a anemone.

BTW, you should not listen to your LFS ever again. Cycle your tank with "yellow tang" and "Chalk Bass" is the most cruel and inhumane advice I have ever heard of. Normally, the Live rock has enough bio-activities to kick off the tank cycles.
 

Danno

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I wanted to cycle the tank with a couple of damsels but the LFS told me that they were not reef safe and I would have a hard time getting them out of the live rock. I didn't think the Tang and Chalk Bass were a very good chioces ether
but the "Saltwater Expert"
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said that young Yellow Tangs and Chalk Bass were "quite hardy". Luckly everything is going fine and I am doing a partial water change with 6 gal of RO water. Shouldn't I add more Live Rock? Somewhere I read 1lb per gal. Is that right? At $7/lb that is going to get costly. Before anyone goes off, yes I know this is an expensive hobby and I'm commited to that I just want to go at this slowly and not jump with out looking. Thanks for the help.
 

fishfarmer

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First I would bring both the yellow tang and the chaulk bass back to the LFS, get store credit and buy enough rock to get around 1 to 2 lbs per gallon. Since you are already experiencing ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings, just continue testing until ammonia and nitrite are zero, and nitrates are low.

What are the full specifications of your tank, lighting, skimmer, sandbed, etc. This will help us make better recommendations.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: fishfarmer ]</p>
 

Danno

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Here are my tank specsMy SpecsI see my Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate levels are all starting to drop off. The Tang and Chalk Bass both seem healthy and content.At this piont I'm going to let them be and take a ride up to Madison to see if I cant find a more reputable LFS. I app. everyones help.
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SeaMac

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Danno,

I will reiterate what the others have said...take the fish back NOW. I don't know anything about the chalk bass, but the tang is definitely too large to be content in your tank, even if it were already established.It is a very bad idea (not to mention cruel) to have fish in your tank while cycling, and even though they may look healthy, I guarantee it is placing unnecessary stress on them. Ammonia and nitrite are both harmful to fish (nitrate is less so)...consider it analogous to you swimming in a pool of your own urine. Doesn't sound like fun does it?

Please read what I and others have posted above, and do as fishfarmer proposed...take them back for store credit and get more live rock. If you want to add more live rock later, you are going to have to cure it in a separate container, or else risk another mini-cycle which will again place undue stress on your inhabitants. I think you can see why it is easier to add it all at the beginning, but if you don't mind have a separate curing vessel (a Rubbermaid tub will be fine) then give it a shot...

After looking at your specs, I would have to amend what I said about the anemone as well. Do NOT even consider getting one with the lighting you are currently using...it is not even close to enough.
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Chris

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: SeaMac ]</p>
 

naesco

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I agree with Chris. Take the fish back for a full credit. It was irresponsible behaviour of the part of the LFS.
 

Jawbone

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I do agree with your LFS about the damsels I had two blue devil damsels and they ripped my flourescent green star polyp apart it was tragic. I dont know what got into them but one day they decided they wanted a morsel that was in or around the coral and I came home and was horrified.

They got a whirly bath
The longer you wait the better the tank.
 

naesco

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Under no circumstances should you take any advice or believe anything that LFS says. Take your time and ask questions here.
Your tank is too small for the yellow.
You need to go slow. Let everything settle down for a couple of months. Find something you like and ask HERE BEFORE you buy.
An anenome is a couple of years away. The clowns do not need it.
 

Danno

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In my reading I remembered that Tangs got fairly large 6-8" is that right? I'm in no hurry my main concern is getting the tank to cycle and possibly adding some more live rock. The inverts are just a dream in the future if all goes well. What’s the scoop on live rock one guy tells me I have to keep it in water to transport it(35 Min from LFS) but the LFS said just to keep it moist with wet paper to transfer it. That is how they get it in. What’s the real deal? How much should I have in a 45 gal tank? I'm really thinking of traveling to Madison (a 50 min trip) to find a different LFS.
 

SeaMac

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Danno,

I understand that you are just getting your feet wet with the whole reefkeeping thing, but I don't think you should look at this hobby as something that you'll learn as you go along. Things will go a LOT smoother in the long run if you take plenty of time to read, research, ask questions and plan before any (additional) livestock purchases are made.

Here are a few suggestions for you at this stage in the game:

1) Don't trust what that employee/LFS tells you...ever. They led you pretty astray right of the bat! Try to find out if there is a reef club in your area...that way you'll be in touch with others that have been in the hobby a little longer, and can also find out from them what LFSs in your area are reputable.
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2) Spend a few more weeks to a few months reading some good books about reefkeeping, corals, fish, etc...

"Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Fenner
"Natural Reef Aquariums" by Tullock

Either one of the two mentioned above are great beginning-intermediate resources and will get you well on your way. They are similar in format, so getting both might be redundant...

"The Reef Aquarium Vol. 1 & 2" by Delbeek and Sprung
"The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium"
"Giant Clams" by Knop
"Clownfishes" by Wilkerson (also discusses anemones)

These are more advanced and/or more specific in subject matter.

3) Don't plan on getting an anemone for at least several months (I would say at least 6 or so...but everyone's learning curve is different), until you've got a really good handle on your water parameters (pH, temperature, salinity, calcium, alkalinity, phosphate, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) and tank maintenance. Also make sure you have the proper equipment to provide for them (lighting, powerhead intake covers, etc...).

4) Read this board as often as possible. There are many, many people on this board who know more than you and I combined, and are more than willing to help. Don't be afraid to use the "Search" feature on this board, and also check out the "Archives".

Hope that helps...
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Chris

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: SeaMac ]</p>
 

Jawbone

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I would definetly check out other shops.

Yes your lfs can get the rock in wet newspaper but then the rock must be "cured" and if he is selling uncured rock then be prepared for a stinky ride home.

there is a lot of die off from uncured rock that needs to take place but that is usually the LFS's job if you will. if you add uncured rock to your system your ammonia will skyrocket and damage everything in your tank
 
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A few points, in no particular order:

Yellow tangs are reasonably hardy, and chalk basses are very hardy (and a group of three or four of them is great)... but neither will do well if you keep them in a tank of cycling live rock. Even worse, if you go ahead and add rocks in increments, the situation for them will not improve.

I'm not going to tell you to take the fish back. That would be the easiest thing to do, to take them back, make all of your live rock purchases at once, let the tank with just the rock in it cure for a few weeks to a month, and you'd be good to go. If you don't want to take them back, your best alternative is to get yourself a container (a small aquarium or a good sized rubbermaid container) and set up to cure any new rock you purchase in that. For that you'll need a heater for the curing tank, a small powerhead for providing circulation and patience for a few weeks
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I absolutely consider a 40g too small for a tang, any tang -- but I will not preach to you on the subject.

Once the nitrite and ammonia readings in your main tank reach zero, you can slowly stock the tank. If you end up curing new rock in a seperate container, once nitrite and ammonia levels in that container reach zero, you can add the rock to your main tank. Make livestock additions slowly in either case.

Transporting live rock submerged in water is great if it's already been cured. If it isn't fully cured, transporting submerged doesn't make much difference. If it's fully cured and you transport it damp, it will go through a mini-cycle afterwards. This is definitely best not inflicted on fish, so again, either do it outside the main tank, or only in the main tank if you end up with no livestock in there.

Liverock, btw, is often -much- cheaper if purchased on line, even after you factor in shipping costs. $2/lb when bought in box lots is about what you'd pay before shipping.

Anemones are difficult. I urge you to thoroughly research them before going forward and purchasing one. They can be kept, but they have their own needs, are demanding, have extremely high mortality rates (and their collection has a very real impact in nature), and a dead anemone in a tank can be a disaster. I don't tell you not to get one, but I do tell you to learn what you're getting into before you make the decision. Looking at your tank specs in another thread, I'd also add that your lighting is a bit weak for host anemones. Possibly a bubble tip would be fine with it, but it's less then I'd be comfortable with.

The best thing you can do for yourself right now is read. Right now, you have your LFS telling you one thing and the people on the boards telling you another. If you inform yourself with a few good (by which I mean to say modern and up to date) books, you'll have a context to place everything you're being told in.
 

Danno

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I'm NOT cycling live rock with fish in the tank OK! The rock I got as well as the rock I'll probably get is cured and was transfered in water.I'm not that crule or dumb to put fish in a tank with curing live rock OK? I have read alot and I have to read more. The problem everybodys and expert but everbody has a different opinion. See the attached web page on where I got my info on yellow tangs. They state"They should be kept in an aquarium of at least 45 gallons, preferably 55 gallons." This is atYellow Tang PageSo now I've got 5 differnt opinions and a LFS that says they won't take the fish back so I have a Yellow Tang thats here to stay, less crule than a swirly! I also now that 90 watts of light in a 45 gal tank is not enough light for Inverts! A year or so down the road when I decide to go that route I'll have to upgrade my lights. I'm working on a project now on running double ballasts to them to crank the output for now. I'll probably upgrade to HO compacts when the time comes.Beleave me I've been doing a LOT of reading, and I have a LOT more to do. I'm here asking questions to get some feed back on what I'm unsure of or haven't found the answer yet.
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Russ1

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Danno,
Egos can abound sometimes on these boards. It's obvious to me that you are trying your best and getting a little too much info from here and your LFS. Everyone has an opinion and it is correct as they see it but there is always more than one way to success. My suggestion is read, read, and read. Then ask specific questions as you need to. Good luck! Russ
 

danmhippo

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Danno,

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't want to bother returning the tang back either. That's why I did not suggest you to return back to the LFS but instead telling you to beware of what they suggest you.

I would assume they told you the rock is "fully cured"??? Well, Get this, IF, indeed the rock is fully cured, you should not be seeing the 2.0 nitrite reading. Damn, that is high, IMO. I haven't seen reading like that for a while.

The ammonia and nitrite reading suggests that your tank is "cycling". Very likely, your rock may not be "fully cured" either. Simply seeing them lying in a tank full of water in LFS is much short of being cured.

Again, just pointing out to you that what you have been told may not be the real truth. Beware of your LFS.

I hope you can understand. Of all these people responded to this thread, we are probably the most fanatics of all reef keepers, if not the extreme. We really cared about the animals we have robbed from the ocean. Many of us has made stupid mistakes before, and we just hate to see history being repeated on the new comers to the reefing. Tangs, being so graceful, we simply couldn't imagin it in water with nitrite readings. It's comparable of living next to the diesel bus exhaust pipe.....you may live, but could die from long term exposure to it.

Again, it is not your fault, but be wary of "that" LFS's advices.

Regards.
 
A

Anonymous

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The ammonia and nitrite reading suggests that your tank is "cycling". Very likely, your rock may not be "fully cured" either.

Right on the nose.
 

SeaMac

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Danno:

All I'm thinking about adding is a Skunk Shrimp,2 clowns and an Annome. How long should I wait before I add the shrimp and Clowns?
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<hr></blockquote>

Sorry if I took this the wrong way, but you didn't initially mention any prospect for a lighting upgrade, so I was under the impression that you were planning on adding the anemone, shrimp, and clowns as soon as someone here gave you the "go ahead". If you already know that you will need to upgrade your lighting before trying one, than you are a step ahead of many beginning reefkeepers, and should be commended for that.
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It is also good to see that you are keeping tabs on this post and have done some research in advance...its just bad luck that some of your sources (i.e., the LFS and the Tang website) weren't giving you 100% accurate information. That of course, isn't your fault...stick with this board and the advice given on it and you should be OK.
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Seriously though...check out one of the two books I mentioned above. They are written by well-respected aquarists, are easy to read and understand, and if you can't find them locally, they can be ordered from most MO fish shops, as well as the larger bookstore chains (Borders, Amazon, Buy.com, etc...).

Don't take it too personally if you get flamed a bit around here...its not really directed at you, but more toward the LFSs and others whose misinformation gives this hobby a bad reputation. If you read this board long enough, I think you'll see that there are a few topics that really get semi-experienced/experienced aquarists riled up...tangs, anemones, sharks, GARF, and overstocking are just a few!
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Keep us posted...
Chris

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: SeaMac ]</p>
 

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