Any problems with SouthDown?
- Thread starter jcb152
- Start date
Don't rinse - you want to keep all the silt-sized grains.
Hardening is due to excessive Ca dosing and is not related to the type of sand.
As far as algae, there could be many causes, depends on what type of algae. But I doubt any algae blooms can be conclusively linked to the sand used, with the possible exception of diatoms on silica sand.
Hardening is due to excessive Ca dosing and is not related to the type of sand.
As far as algae, there could be many causes, depends on what type of algae. But I doubt any algae blooms can be conclusively linked to the sand used, with the possible exception of diatoms on silica sand.
I couldn't find Southdown. So I bought plain ol' silica play sand at Walmart. So I should have a mess on my hands, right? Not at all. Looks like a normal marine tank. It's a fairly new tank, so it has the expected complement of diatoms, but no more than any tank of this age. I have no snails yet and nothing that eats algae in the tank until last night when I got my Naso tang.
I use buffer to keep that parameters in check. About the only problem I see is that it has a tendency to drift like sand dunes or snow if the current is too high. I thought it looked kind of cool though, so I left it the way it went.
I'll never pay for aragonite sand again. That money can be used elsewhere.
djp
I use buffer to keep that parameters in check. About the only problem I see is that it has a tendency to drift like sand dunes or snow if the current is too high. I thought it looked kind of cool though, so I left it the way it went.
I'll never pay for aragonite sand again. That money can be used elsewhere.
djp
Here are some southdown sand threads that would probably be helpful:
To was or not to wash... that is the question
Ideas to upgrade CC Substrate to SD substrate
Everything you wanted to know about SD sand but were afraid to ask.
Don't tell them what you want it for...
To was or not to wash... that is the question
Ideas to upgrade CC Substrate to SD substrate
Everything you wanted to know about SD sand but were afraid to ask.
Don't tell them what you want it for...
Many will probably differ, but here are my two cents: Throw out all the SD as potentially hazardous waste and buy aquarium sand. Although many have had no problems with SD, there is a growing number of people who have had disasters with it. IME and IMHO, when it costs hundreds or thousands of dollars to set up a reef tank, it's worth another $50 or $100 to avoid the very real risk of getting a random batch of SD with nasty crap in it. My detailed flame on this subject from a week or two ago is in one of the threads cited above if you are interested in why I feel so strongly about this subject. If you decide to use the SD, I sincerely hope that what happened to my tank does not happen to your tank. Whether or not that happens appears to be purely a matter of luck.
LawnDoctor-
If you read the link below (posted twice, once by me and once by Bongo) you will find that Southdown Sand is the same stuff sold by carib-sea.
I have heard a few "horror stories" but am not convinced it was the sand that was the problem. I have heard many many people on this board who swear by it, myself included.
Ernie
If you read the link below (posted twice, once by me and once by Bongo) you will find that Southdown Sand is the same stuff sold by carib-sea.
I have heard a few "horror stories" but am not convinced it was the sand that was the problem. I have heard many many people on this board who swear by it, myself included.
Ernie
Ernie:
I certainly respect your opinion but as you know my direct personal experience with SD has been very different from yours. If you think something other than the SD caused this problem with my tank I am all ears. I am always interested in learning from others on this board.
The following information may be helpful: Before I introduced the SD, the only thing in the tank was RO/DI mixed with Tropic Marin. Water parameters were temp 80F; SG 1.025; pH 8.30, zero nitrogen and compounds and phosphate; dissolved oxygen, iodine, and calcium 8, 0.06, and 350 ppm respectively. The cloudiness began immediately after I added the SD. The cement caking became apparent about an hour later. I let the tank clear for over a week and did one complete and multiple partial water changes before I transferred the livestock, rocks, and sand from my 37. When I did, the water parameters were nearly identical in both tanks. I acclimated the fish for an hour and all inverts for two hours. When I transferred the sand from the old tank, there was no foul smell whatsoever so I do not believe hydrogen sulfide was a problem. Livestock deaths began 24 hours after the transfer. I had moved the old tank several months earlier using the same transfer and acclimation procedures with no problems at all.
If you can shed any light I would really appreciate it so I may try to prevent this from happening to me again.
Also, if you have, or if you know other people who have, actually experienced problems of this sort with Carib Sea sand or any other brand of aquarium sand, I would really appreciate knowing that too.
Thank you for your help.
I certainly respect your opinion but as you know my direct personal experience with SD has been very different from yours. If you think something other than the SD caused this problem with my tank I am all ears. I am always interested in learning from others on this board.
The following information may be helpful: Before I introduced the SD, the only thing in the tank was RO/DI mixed with Tropic Marin. Water parameters were temp 80F; SG 1.025; pH 8.30, zero nitrogen and compounds and phosphate; dissolved oxygen, iodine, and calcium 8, 0.06, and 350 ppm respectively. The cloudiness began immediately after I added the SD. The cement caking became apparent about an hour later. I let the tank clear for over a week and did one complete and multiple partial water changes before I transferred the livestock, rocks, and sand from my 37. When I did, the water parameters were nearly identical in both tanks. I acclimated the fish for an hour and all inverts for two hours. When I transferred the sand from the old tank, there was no foul smell whatsoever so I do not believe hydrogen sulfide was a problem. Livestock deaths began 24 hours after the transfer. I had moved the old tank several months earlier using the same transfer and acclimation procedures with no problems at all.
If you can shed any light I would really appreciate it so I may try to prevent this from happening to me again.
Also, if you have, or if you know other people who have, actually experienced problems of this sort with Carib Sea sand or any other brand of aquarium sand, I would really appreciate knowing that too.
Thank you for your help.
I don't know for sure, but it could be that you had some die of from your first move. This by itself might have been OK, but when you did the second move it may have wiped out more of the benifical bacterias etc. maybe a fish died from stress and started poluting the water before you got to it, but now your bacterias etc weren't in place to look after it.Then your amonia nitrate nitrite cycle got wacked and more death and destructon.....
Only a theory
what were the water parameters as soon as the fish started to die?
Scott
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Taoism Forum
Only a theory
what were the water parameters as soon as the fish started to die?
Scott
_________________
Taoism Forum
I agree with Lawndoctor, that there are problems with SD. I had purchased some a couple of years ago and it was filthy. I called SD and they told me that it should not be used for aquariums as they can't guarantee that it is safe.
SD packages other products such as lime, limestone, gypsum and other lawncare products and sometimes you get bags that will contain some of these other products. They do not clean the equipment between bagging operations as it dosn't make any difference for the intended usage.
While in Houston, Texas a while ago I found a product I had not seen before called Pure Caribbean Aragonite. I did not purchase it at the retailer as I was flying back home, but ordered through the web site www.purearagonite.com, great color and grain size particles lots of really fine particles.
Als,o I have used a company in Brooklyn NY, esvco.com, they also sell a quality aragonite, good product.
BOTH OF THESE COMPANIES HAVE SAFE QUALITY ARAGONITE SAND, at what I feel are decent prices. I would rather pay a little more and KNOW that the product is SAFE for my SYSTEM.
When I read all these posts about people looking for SD in HD, not even knowing what it looks like or the correct name of the sand it makes me cringe. I wonder if any have actually purchase concrete mix thinking they had the correct sand.
Just my 2 cents.
SD packages other products such as lime, limestone, gypsum and other lawncare products and sometimes you get bags that will contain some of these other products. They do not clean the equipment between bagging operations as it dosn't make any difference for the intended usage.
While in Houston, Texas a while ago I found a product I had not seen before called Pure Caribbean Aragonite. I did not purchase it at the retailer as I was flying back home, but ordered through the web site www.purearagonite.com, great color and grain size particles lots of really fine particles.
Als,o I have used a company in Brooklyn NY, esvco.com, they also sell a quality aragonite, good product.
BOTH OF THESE COMPANIES HAVE SAFE QUALITY ARAGONITE SAND, at what I feel are decent prices. I would rather pay a little more and KNOW that the product is SAFE for my SYSTEM.
When I read all these posts about people looking for SD in HD, not even knowing what it looks like or the correct name of the sand it makes me cringe. I wonder if any have actually purchase concrete mix thinking they had the correct sand.
Just my 2 cents.
lawndoctor/strongbow:
How are you going to guarantee your sand is safe from commercial vendors? They say they do this, but are you sure? SouthDown is fine in my book! Never had a problem, but i took the time to sort through all 300+ lbs and to then run a rare-earth magnet through it also. Nothing found other than coral rubble. Of course you can't see the oil, toxins, and contaminants, but if you can in Carib Sea, purearagonite, and other commercila vendors i want to see it.
A little pollution will be fine, IF your not adding fish directly into the new tank! I let 2 dinner shrimp COMPLETELY decompose in my tank of SouthDown. The water was cloudy for several days, but soon cleared. I stirred the sand everyday for two weeks and the spike was over by the third. I then placed algae in the tank to suck up some of the gunk (no skimmer ran during this break-in period). When it was in full swind, i attached it temporarily to another 'fug tank to pull out the toxins (if any). You'd be amazed if you saw some numbers on how much toxins wetlands and saltwater marshes process in the wlld. And since my 'fug is a marsh setup, i'm sure it took care of any problems.
Lawndoctor:
Did you place the fish in the tank several days after you had the sand in the tank? That's a No-No in it's self. You have to let the bacteria thrive before any livestock addition: the more time to "brew" the better. It's impossible to throw ANY size tank together with lr and ls and expect it to survive.
Just My $0.02,
DW302
How are you going to guarantee your sand is safe from commercial vendors? They say they do this, but are you sure? SouthDown is fine in my book! Never had a problem, but i took the time to sort through all 300+ lbs and to then run a rare-earth magnet through it also. Nothing found other than coral rubble. Of course you can't see the oil, toxins, and contaminants, but if you can in Carib Sea, purearagonite, and other commercila vendors i want to see it.
A little pollution will be fine, IF your not adding fish directly into the new tank! I let 2 dinner shrimp COMPLETELY decompose in my tank of SouthDown. The water was cloudy for several days, but soon cleared. I stirred the sand everyday for two weeks and the spike was over by the third. I then placed algae in the tank to suck up some of the gunk (no skimmer ran during this break-in period). When it was in full swind, i attached it temporarily to another 'fug tank to pull out the toxins (if any). You'd be amazed if you saw some numbers on how much toxins wetlands and saltwater marshes process in the wlld. And since my 'fug is a marsh setup, i'm sure it took care of any problems.
Lawndoctor:
Did you place the fish in the tank several days after you had the sand in the tank? That's a No-No in it's self. You have to let the bacteria thrive before any livestock addition: the more time to "brew" the better. It's impossible to throw ANY size tank together with lr and ls and expect it to survive.
Just My $0.02,
DW302
I use SD sand for my aquarium and did not have any problem. SD sand is play sand for children so I doubt that there is any toxic stuff in it as far as chemical goes. I did not wash it. I did have it in my tank before the LR and it was about 1 month before I added corals and fishes into the tank. Initially, there was an algae bloom just as with any newly setup tank. My corals and clams have being growing really fast since, for the last 1.5 years.
[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: Minh Nguyen ]</p>
[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: Minh Nguyen ]</p>
LawnDoctor:
It sounds to me like the tank was not cycled when you did the transfer. You basically started a tank from scratch, added liverock and livestock and then had a cycle which was probably responsible for the loss you experienced. Let me know if I am missing something here.
Strongbow:
What do you mean "it was filthy'? Can you be more specific? What did you find in it?
Once again, I have heard few horror stories, and many success stories. The number of people on this board who have SD in their tanks is staggering.
E
It sounds to me like the tank was not cycled when you did the transfer. You basically started a tank from scratch, added liverock and livestock and then had a cycle which was probably responsible for the loss you experienced. Let me know if I am missing something here.
Strongbow:
What do you mean "it was filthy'? Can you be more specific? What did you find in it?
Once again, I have heard few horror stories, and many success stories. The number of people on this board who have SD in their tanks is staggering.
E
I have never had a problem with my SD. I did find several stones, but nothing bad.
I do know of a reefer who put Aquarium sand (I don't remember the brand) in a tank he was setting up only to find a pound of metal shavings.
And to restate Minh's point: South Down is sold as children’s play sand. So form a simple liability point it had best not contain pesticides, toxins or lime!
I do know of a reefer who put Aquarium sand (I don't remember the brand) in a tank he was setting up only to find a pound of metal shavings.
And to restate Minh's point: South Down is sold as children’s play sand. So form a simple liability point it had best not contain pesticides, toxins or lime!
Responses to various questions: The testable tank parameters were perfect throughout both transfers. There was no die-off in the first move. I had the SD in the 75 for two weeks before transferring the livestock, rock, and sand from the 37. There was no ammonia spike or cycle in either case. The only differences between the two transfers were (a) the volume of water in the tank and (b) the addition of SD sand. I don't think that because something is safe for humans to play in absolutely means it is safe for reef fish to swim in. I understand from others on this board that SD specifically warns against its use for aquariums. Please excuse the following sarcasm but I can't resist having a little fun with this: Carib Sea may really be the exact same thing as SD, but the extent to which you may accept this as an absolute fact based on the previous post depends on how much you are willing to bet the health of your reef tank on someone quoting someone else over the internet who is partially quoting someone else who is saying something prohibited by his employer to someone in a long-distance telephone call with someone he never met before. Also, although I did not do it in my case, I'm not sure that placing fish in a tank two days after adding new sand is a no-no. Many on this board have advocated adding new sand while fish are in the tank and have reported no ill effects. Finally, if something like this had happened with Carib Sea, I would be aggressively pursuing a claim, and I think a very colorable one, against the manufacturer because the product is held out to the public specifically as safe for reef aquaria and is priced accordingly, rather than wasting more of everyone's time with what I think by now I have unfortunately made into a mountain from a molehill. I sincerely wish you all luck with your tanks whatever your opinions are about the use of SD.
Hey jcb152,
I just moved my tank from a 60 to a 125, 3 weeks ago, the only change I had was the volume of water and 100lbs of SouthDown. I have had no problems. Everyone has their own opinion on this stuff. You have to try it and experience it for yourself. What might happen in one tank might not in another.
I just moved my tank from a 60 to a 125, 3 weeks ago, the only change I had was the volume of water and 100lbs of SouthDown. I have had no problems. Everyone has their own opinion on this stuff. You have to try it and experience it for yourself. What might happen in one tank might not in another.
I opted not to use SD for my new setup of my 60 partially because of the storms that I have heard but also because its not available in Socal. I instead did my research and bough silica sand at home depot. 100 lbs for 6 bucks. I got home, put 50 lbs in a new 5 gallon paint bucket and ran my garden hose all the way down and around and rinsed it will and lost very very very little sand although Im sure I lost some of the tiny particles that are beneficial. I had 0...ill repeat that 0 clouding. it was perfectly clear. Im taking my time with the setup but there is one blue damsel and a mushroom rock and few pieces of liverock just to help things along. My damsel is a happy camper in the 60 all alone.
The sand obviously has no buffering capacity but from reading, its not really proven that aragonite has all that great of a buffering capacity as well. The only downfall is the sand is the color of beach sand.(alot is taken from monterrey beach) I like the natural look actually but I have 25 lbs of live sand from my 18 nano thats still running that is pink fiji sand that im slowly seeding it on top of the bed so my bed top will be white(barring it all doesnt settle down below
)
HTH somewhat.
jason
The sand obviously has no buffering capacity but from reading, its not really proven that aragonite has all that great of a buffering capacity as well. The only downfall is the sand is the color of beach sand.(alot is taken from monterrey beach) I like the natural look actually but I have 25 lbs of live sand from my 18 nano thats still running that is pink fiji sand that im slowly seeding it on top of the bed so my bed top will be white(barring it all doesnt settle down below
HTH somewhat.
jason
Strongbow: What do you mean "it was filthy'? Can you be more specific? What did you find in it?
I found what appeared to be small pieces of asphalt as well as grayish pelleted particles, quite a few in number. When I called up SD they told me that the asphalt was from the pad where they dump the product before bagging it. The grayish pellets I was told were probably gypsum.
I found what appeared to be small pieces of asphalt as well as grayish pelleted particles, quite a few in number. When I called up SD they told me that the asphalt was from the pad where they dump the product before bagging it. The grayish pellets I was told were probably gypsum.
I have never had any problems with it. In fact, the terrible clouding that I read so much about has not really been a problem for me. It usually clears up in a couple of days.
As far as "dirt", the only thing that I have noticed is the occasonal piece of grain. I have never seen anything else.
And yes, CaribSea and SouthDown come from the same source. They both are distributors. They buy the sand from the same mining company. SouthDown HAS to say that it is not recommended for aquarium use because they are under contract and subsiquent legal pressure from CaribSea to do so. SouthDown would be sued out of business by CaribSea if they mentioned that it was good for aquariums and I would assume that CaribSea checks them frequently.
Now if CaribSea would make 50 pound bags for $3 per bag, I would gladly buy from them. Regardless of what you want to believe lawndoctor and strongbow, this is the same stuff. If you want to spend 10x the price for less sand, then more power to you.
Mark
As far as "dirt", the only thing that I have noticed is the occasonal piece of grain. I have never seen anything else.
And yes, CaribSea and SouthDown come from the same source. They both are distributors. They buy the sand from the same mining company. SouthDown HAS to say that it is not recommended for aquarium use because they are under contract and subsiquent legal pressure from CaribSea to do so. SouthDown would be sued out of business by CaribSea if they mentioned that it was good for aquariums and I would assume that CaribSea checks them frequently.
Now if CaribSea would make 50 pound bags for $3 per bag, I would gladly buy from them. Regardless of what you want to believe lawndoctor and strongbow, this is the same stuff. If you want to spend 10x the price for less sand, then more power to you.
Mark
I have know doubt that Caribsea, Pure Caribbean Aragonite, ESVCO and Southdown all originate from the same source.
The difference is in the way it is handled, processed, packaged and stored. That's the only difference, but to me THAT IS THE REASON I would rather purchase something that is specifically for the use intended.
The difference is in the way it is handled, processed, packaged and stored. That's the only difference, but to me THAT IS THE REASON I would rather purchase something that is specifically for the use intended.
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