need opinion of the pro's on set up

[Anonymous]

I have never had any saltwater fish or a reef aquarium before, but I am currently in the research and reading part before I set up a 180 gal reef tank. I have had a 125 gal tank with chinese gold fish in it and have
been quite successful with it, but I knew nothing about salt water fish and even less about reef aquarium until about 2 weeks ago when I first started to read about it. And yes, I am planing on the Delbeek and Sprung books for christmas.

I am detailing the set up I am planing below so you can give me your opinion and any suggestions you may have. I would want to have a heavily stocked tank in the future with a good variety of just about everything including clams, hard and soft corals, etc. There won't be more than 5-7 small fish when all is said and done. Believe me, I love constructive criticism and would really
appreciate yours.

Set up:

- All Glass 180 gal tank with dual overflows (72x24x24) and stand/canopy.
- Lighting is going to be 2-36" sets of 6-96 watt (total of 1152 watts or 6.4 watt/gal) PC lights next to each other. 6 actinics and 6 daylights with reflectors. I am planing on putting 2 small fans to prevent too much heat build up and the ballasts will be in a box in the floor with a small fan as well to reduce heat even more. I will do the light set up myself and will fit it under the canopy. I
refuse to buy a chiller!!
- Sump is going to be a 30 gal long glass fish tank fitted under the stand.
- A 10 gal tank with a float into the sump for evaporative water supply.
- Water supplied by a Kent Marine RO/DI unit (50 g/day).
- Water return from sump is by a 1100 g/h Iwaki pump. There will be a T with a valve set up for water changes ease to be done from the sump without reducing the level of water in the tank above.
- Water movement in the tank is by 2 400 g/h power heads in the back running continuously and then 4 others placed in the sides powered by a Red Sea wave maker. Will make flow lighter at night.
- 2 300 watt heaters.
- I am still very shaky as to what skimmer to use, so comments or suggestions would be appreciated here. I am looking into the Aerofoamer and the spideons, but their cost and the cost of the extra pump will total more than what I would like it to be. We'll see.
- K2r Ca reactor with a 20 lb CO2 tank.
- Live rock is going to be 300 lb from Tampa Bay Saltwater (TBS) and 100 lb from Harbor Aquatics. This rock is not cured except for Harbour's.
- 180 lb of live sand from TBS.
- For the cleaning crew, I am planing on 100 aestrea snails, 100 turbo snails, 2 serpent stars, 2 brittle stars, 2 tiger tail cucumbers, 2 donky dong cucumbers, and 4 pistol shrimps. This may increase as the
need arises over months.

I am also detailing the way I plan to start out so you can give me some feedback and correct any mistakes I may make here.

1-) The entire set up is going to run for 1 week with RO/DI water to work out any leaks. Temp will be set 78-80 degrees. Lights and Ca reactor off.
2-) Run for another week with the salt added. Reef crystals salt???? Lights and Ca reactor off and salinity of 1.023.
3-) The live rock and live sand is added.
4-) Cycle will be watched and I will be testing for pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Water changes will be done
during cycling to reduce ammonia and nitrites. Will shoot for pH of 8.2. Lights and Ca reactor off.
5-) Once the cycle has ended and ammonia and nitrites is 0, lights will be turned on for a total of only 5-6 hours per day with timers turning one row (2 bulbs side by side) of actinics, 30-45 min later a row of daylights, 30-45 min. later 2 rows (one of each), and 30-45 min. later the remaining 2 rows. Lights will be going off in the same sequence. I will add the cleaning crew after cycling is
over.
6-) will not add any fish or corals for 1 month.
7-) will add 3 percula clowns and 2 weeks later the first soft coral. I am planing on a couple of mandarin fish, but not until after about a year after the tank has been set up. Plan to add corals every other week if money allows. I will probably be broke by them and will have to be content just looking at the
rock or sell a kidney in E-bay, ha ha ha ha. I will start to increase the light time to a final total of 14 hours/day over the next 4 months with the same on and off sequence.
will do 15-20 gal water changes monthly and will start the Ca reactor after the first coral goes in just to keep Ca at 420 and dKH at 8-10. Do I need to start it sooner??
9-) Initially, I will test for pH, Ca, alkalinity, and nitrates weekly during and after the cycling and will cut back to every other week at 3-4 months after cycling.
10-) Plan to test for Mg, Iodine, and strontium when I start adding adding corals and will supplement accordingly.

I am not a very patient person by any means, but if I am going to invest this much more money I want to make sure I don't mess it up due to some stupidity. I will also run a small 10 gal tank for quarantining fish for at least 2 weeks (I have learned my lesson big time with my freshwater fish). Any feedback here as well will be more than appreciated. Remember, 2 weeks ago I didn't diddly scuad about salt water set ups, so I am sure a lot of what I have above is incorrect and that is where you will come in. Thanks again in advance for your time
and suggestions/comments. Imagine this is your set up. How would you do it differently short of using metal halides.Sorry, I know it was kind of long.

 

[Anonymous]

By the way, can you tell me how big is your set up and how long have you been keeping reef aquariums??

 

[Anonymous]

In response to a few of your items:
Lighting - With a 24" deep aquarium, and considering yourt plan to include hard corals (SPS?) and clams, I would advise you to go with three MHs. MHs, especially Iwasaki setups, are more economical for larger tanks. Twelve 36" bulbs at $40 apiece adds up to too much IMO. More importantly, your corals (clams and sps) will appreciate it. Also, MH will give your tank glitter lines. Three 400W bulbs, or two 250's with a 400 in the center would create a nice effect. I've used MH and PC, separately and together. IN neither case did I need a chiller. Good ventilation (fan) and/or central AC is all you need.

You have too many Turbo snails, IMO. Once your initial algae bloom disappears, your turbos will, in all liklihood, starve to death. Also, they tend to bulldoze their way around the reef. Try some Nassaarius snails. They work wonders for your sand bed. Your pistol shrimp may fight when their territories overlap. Consider reducing the number to two, and look into getting matched goby/pistol shrimp pairs. They're a great addition to a tank, IMO. Beware of cucumbers... Are you sure you want donkey dongs(?)in your tank

.

Why Tamba Bay rock? I have nothign against this type of rock, it's just that I think you should take a look at the various types available before you make a decision like this. Marshall Isalnd rock is quite different from Fiji rock which is different from Somaon plate, which is different from Florida rock... If you have already done so, please disregard the previous comment. Anyway, 400 lbs. seems like too much rock to me, even if it is the extra dense, extra heavy Florida rock.

I've used/seen most brands of skimmer, and many models work very well. I chose an expensive Euroreef model because I decided an aspirating skimmer was the best choice for me. It is powered by a 50w pump (compared to 120W and upfor other big dollar skimmers), creates smaller bubbles than all other skimmers except properly adjusted CC air skimmers, and is the easiest skimmer to setup and operate. Also, it is one of the quietest skimmers. Other good skimmers that I've seen in action are the ETS line, the MTC line, the Aerofoamer, and the AquaC series.

Green brittle stars can be aggressive and I would leave them out if it were my tank.

And now for a very important consideration: Can your apartment handle the electrical load? Three heaters, two big pumps, lots of lights...it all adds up very quickly. You may need to upgrade your circuit, or better yet, utilize two or three separate circuits.

Where do you live? How reliable is your apartmetn's heating unit? I suspect you could get by will smaller,fewer heaters. I only use two 125W heaters on my 150 gallon tank.

Ron Shimek's inexpensive new book would be a great addition to your reading list. Amazon.com sells it. I think it's in the $10 range.

There are many ways to successfully create and maintain a reef tank. My responses naturally reflect my own biases that result from my successes and failures in the three years I've kept reef tanks. The only material items you really need on your list are the tank and the salt water. That said, I really think you should reconsider the lights!

. HTH.
-Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Just a quick question, why three clowns? I always thought that the third one would get bullied by the two that pair up.

Mike G

 

[Anonymous]

I would also go with MH lighting for that tank..don't get me wrong I use PC's and love them but its going to cost you 4 to 5 hundred bucks every year to replace the bulbs..I replace mine every 9 months.....your tank sounds Swwweeeat.

Mark

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see my tank at
members.xoom.com/golfish1/reef.htm

 

[Anonymous]

Go with the 400W halides. It'll be a better setup in the long run.

My tank is tiny: 55 gal.
I've been at this for a couple years.

------------------ http://members.xoom.com/FriscoReef/


[This message has been edited by Frisco (edited 15 December 1999).]

 

[Anonymous]

MikeG: no particular reason for the 3 clowns. I figured the ank would be big enough to claim territories since there is not going to be more than 5-7 fish total.

 

[Anonymous]

I have three tanks 120gal reef with 75gal sump, 125gal and 60galhex salt fish only. I've had salt's for 10yrs and reef for almost 8, this reef tank is 5 yrs old but the rock is almost 8.

I think you should go alittle easy at first why spend alllllllllll that money if you don't know what your really getting into. I'm sure there are some people that dive right into it. But I think most people go alittle slower. Your doing the right thing by reading up, take your time and read alot of material. Remember one thing there are no short cuts in reef keeping. These are very delicate animals and we need to take caution when we do certain things.

I use a 15lb co2 bottle, they last quite awhile. I also have a 5lb for back up.

Bill

 

[Anonymous]

All I can say is Wow! I have only had a salt tank for 6 months so my advise is "do it and don't look back!" I'm replying only bacause I got my start with a 45 and 150 tall Koi tanks. I was given my 75 reef. I converted the w/d to a sump and added extra powerheads. I upgraded the bulbs.....etc,etc,etc. I think I've spent more on the free salt tank in 6 months then in the last 5 years on my Koi.

.......now ask me about the pond I want to build to free up the 150 tall.....

 

[Anonymous]

Hey,

Forget the AGA stand and go for one like we have - the extra room is amazing. Then you can get a much bigger sump, which means a much more stable system. We have plenty room under ours for a 120 g, we could even have put a 180g sump. The cost of our stand was peanuts compared to everything else, in fact it was one of the cheapest things (see sig).

Your plan is sound, although I would say wait as long as you can before adding any fish. Especially if you want to have a mandarin. The longer you go, the more stable your system will become. We are on our fourth month for our 180 and still haven't put a single fish in yet ... although it is getting tough.

You don't necessarily need a Ca reactor right away, but it is up to you. One of the two part supplements will get you by until necessary. Also, if you want to test for leaks, just run normal tap water, you don't need to unnecessarily exhaust your RO/DI capacity just to test for leaks.

Oh yeah, 3 250 watt heaters might be a better option, especially if you can figure on getting a bigger sump.

I would go a bit slower with adding corals , say one a month or even longer. I know it is tough, but you need to be patient, it will pay off in the long run.

Although it is completely personal preference, maybe consider running salinity a bit higher 1.024 or 1.025 (34 , 35 ppm) especially if you ever want a blue linkia.

On lighting you might want some MH lighting instead of all PC, but this is up to you.

Lastly, no matter how much you think you have planned and are ready - well, prepare yourself to be overwhelmed. It will happen at some point, you'll hit 'rock bottom' and want to break down - It has happened to everybody. When it does, just take a few deep breathes and think 'it will be ok, it will be ok' -

Enjoy your tank !!!!!


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http://www.users.uswest.net/~bombay/tank/index.html

 

[Anonymous]

1Floyd. Thanks for the constructive reply. Saw your pictures. Looks good. Can't use your type of stande in an apartment! I will not be setting everything up for a couple of months at the very least.

 

[Anonymous]

Ways to save $; Use aragonite..120 lbs. and seed with 30 lbs. live sand and Inland Aquatics detrivore kit. Forget the Carb. rock..very heavy/dense-not as good bio. filtration, and takes MUCH more to fill the same space(and could get mantis shrimp also). $600 for Ca reactor will buy you 3-4 years worth of B-Ionic, and you don't know if you really need it!
Ways to spend savings; Beat skimmet you can get, and MH lighting, as suggested by above posts!
Personal opinion: get a better variety of snails, Nassarius, trochus, cerith, nerite (no Astrea, they fall and can't right themselves!) Cukes are OK, Peppermint shrimps will eat aptasia and not fight, also get along with cleaners (dump pistols).
I have a 150 gal. reef similar to yours, except the upgrades I suggested, and have had little trouble. Have hard and soft coral, lotsa fish, and still trying to get rid of mantises from my first order of live rock! I also only let the live rock and sand cycle for 1 week before starting to add mushroom rock and fish (and still have the first fish I bought!..2 years ago!)Extended cycle period is unnecessary, unless you get uncured rock!

 

[Anonymous]

well i think you dont need 400lbs of live rock either. its generally around 1.5lbs of live rock per gallon, wich would give you 270 lbs of live rock. i would go with 300 lbs max IMO. plus at $6 per lb you would spend $1620 as compared to $2400 with 400 lbs.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Dimaggio,

Sounds like you have thought this out very well, definitley a plus when starting a reef tank. One thing you did not mention, can your apartment floor handle the weight? If your on anything but the 1st floor, you may run into some trouble. I live on the 2nd floor of an apartment complex that was built very well, and was experiencing weight problems with my 55 gallon tank. Don't forget that the tank, water and live rock will weigh close to 2200 pounds (tank is 300lbs, water is 1440lbs and the rock is another 400lbs). Most apartment floors cannot handle that kind of stuctuaral strain. If you are on the 1st floor, make sure that its concrete slab under you, otherwise you might have problems there.

Skip the Calcium reactor and by Metal Halides. The $600 bucks for the reactor is much better spent on the lighting and skimmer. Go for 400 watt Halides and a high end skimmer (ETSS, MTC, etc..). The SPS will respond better to the Metal Halides, and any photosynthetic organisms on the bottom (tridacna clams) will need the extra light.

Unless you're locked into the Florida rock, you might want to check out Fiji or another more pourous rock. Not only will this help with the weight of the whole system, but the more pourous rock will act as a better filter.

The slower you take the whole project the better. The one thing you have on your side is time, don't put too many species in too quickly. Our enclosed mini-reefs take time to find equilibrium and each new specimen disrupts the process.

Good luck!

 

[Anonymous]

I strongly disagree with the above posts regarding the usefulness of a Ca reactor. Don't forget about the cost of your time when you add everything up. The initial costs of setting up a reactor can be high, but it pays for itself quickly. An sps and clam tank with good lighting will have a tremendous consumption rate. So much consumption that adding chemicals manually can quickly become a chore. And eat up quite a bit of time in the process of daily additions. Having to worry about adding the chemicals slow enough...what a chore...


But with the reactor, the tank levels pretty much stabilize and need only minor tinkering. I think you initially made a good decision, so don't waiver. I got a K2R with a regulator for about $400, so I guess prices vary a bit depending on your location and willingness to haggle. I have found a great DIY on the web that is very similar to the K2R and is very simple to assemble if you have a local plastic retailer (with the right tools)

You also might be able to cut down on the number of circulation pumps considerably. By setting up 2 sump returns with a simple motorized valve, you can get a return line that oscillates between the two outlets. Add 2 of the "above the tank mounted" 600 GPH powerheads and you'll really reduce the amount of visible hardware inside the tank. And you'll still have great water movement with wave and tide action. Check out the DIY reactor and sump return on my link page...

One other thing that will be very nice is a simple Neptune controller. The simple model will take the place of the wavemaker, but will also perform a number of other functions that will prove valuable in the long run.

I also wouldn't get so much of the TBS rock. I am a big advocate of lots of rock, so 2 lb/gal doesn't seem like too much to me. Although their rock somes with alot of interesting sponges and inverts, it's so dense that it's almost a joke. I'd buy one box at the most, but I'd still get about 300 lb of rock from the south pacific. You can actually get rock from Fiji, Samoa, Marshall Islands, and Pago Pago very easily these days, and the prices aren't as ridiculous as the recent past. You should be able to get it between $2-4 for the amount you're talking about.

And again, go with the 400s. Depending on how you set things up, you don't necessarily need a chiller. So keep an open mind.

Consider a backup drain from the main tank in case your overflow gets clogged somehow. By placing it higher than the overflow levels, you can easily prevent needless floods when the pump empties the sump.

I also like the EuroReef skimmers, for all the reasons stated above.

I'd initially do an overnight rinse in some garbage cans with salt water and good water movement when you get the rock. You can get around some of the initial pollution spike of organics by doing this and dumping the rinse water. And I'd also keep the lights on during the rock cycle and initial setup; otherwise, many of the interesting things on the rock will die. Algae blooms are not guaranteed if you start with good RO/DI, skim heavily, and perform many water changes. And I speak from experience!

I also prefer Instant Ocean salt. It has been better buffered IME, isn't as expensive, and appears to be closer in composition to natural salt water. Check out the Aquarium Frontiers archive for the comparison article.




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http://members.xoom.com/FriscoReef/

 

[Anonymous]

OK,
1) increase the sump size. With a tank that large you're gonna want a big sump to play around in. And stay away from glass. It's too hard to drill and trust me, you're gonna want to.

2) Like eveyone else is saying, drop the PC and go Metal Halide, 250 or 400 watt. much much more economical and the light is better and looks better because of the glimmer lines.

3) Why not just hook up the RO/DI straight to the float in the sump? save the space on the 10 gal tank.

4) I heard mention of apartment...I really hope you plan to be there a long time, moving that size tank is a real B@tch.

5) Take it sloooooowwww. You can't jump into a reef like you can with fresh water. Not only is it better on the tank inhabitants, it's easier on the monthly expenses!

Other than that, flow sounds good, tank size is excellent, you should really enjoy!

My stats: 90 gal and 125 gal reef tanks. Both use MH/VHO, ETS skimmers (RDIII, GEMINI750), RO top off, K2R reactors(new addition). Been doing it for about 3.5 years and worked at a LFS for about 3 years. (Yes, I was one of the few knowledgeable LFS employees on the face of the Earth).

 

[Anonymous]

frisco: I must say that tank of yours is one marble of human engineering.I was wondering where I can get one of those oscillating devices for the return. Also, I was not sure if I read it right, but do you have the pump supplying the durge deviced coming from the sump or the tank??
Thanks to everyone for the constructive advice. It goes without saying that I am seriously considering many changes based on the input provided here. Some are: I will go with MH (not sure if 250-400-250 or if I'll go with 400-400-400 10K bulbs), also as far as the skimmer, I am leaning toward the Euroreef (we'll see). I may go with surge devices instead of all the powerhead orquestra. I am re-evaluating the amount and the source of the rock, but likely is going to be 300 Fiji and 50-75 from FL. 180 lb of sand will go in, but since I am starting from scratch, I may seed 150 lb with 30 lb of live sand. I am considering an acrylic tank over glass, but even though I can appreciate the benefits (lighter, clearer,etc) my wallet may not take the extra moolah necessary for it. Ca reactor is going to be a K2R with a 20 lb CO2 tank. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, but I was refering to goldenboy's tank and set up