Iodine/Iodide and Xenia

[Anonymous]

Seems like there are different opinions among reef keepers on this issue. I have umbrella xenia, xenia umbellata, which is growing/dividing well. I supplement iodine weekly and wonder if this is truly required. I also know that iodine testing is not the best - most seem to use Salifert but not all seem happy with the kit.
Many references, Delbeek & Sprung - Reef Aquarium Vol. 1, Peterbaugh & Borneman - A Practical Guide to Corals, state that iodine is required by these corals. What is the consensus out there? Can you get enough iodine from water changes, say bi-weekly, and not supplement? Is the iodine requirement for all species of xenia, or maybe only certain ones?
Please state your opinion on this issue.
Tom

 

[Anonymous]

I have found that even weekly water changes with IO only give me <.02 but still detectable Iodide levels. I supplement every few days to maintain .04 - .06

My xenia umbellata and elongata are thriving but I don't know how they would do without the Iodide...

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Mark <' {)))><

 

[Anonymous]

How to ensure correct levels? Good question.

I believe that the tests are good for preventing overdosing (that's the useful part of "nearly useless').

However, after doing some tersting of kits a few years ago, I haven't tested for iodide since.

Since iodide seems to disappear from most tanks with a few days, IMO it is acceptable to dose 0.01 to 0.02 ppm I- every few days to a week. That way, you'l be getting NSW levels of I- at least some of the time, but aren't likely to overdose.

I've seen negative effects of iodate on mushrooms (green ones turned brown, purple ones turned clear)and on green star polyps (turned brown). All of them lived (just fine??)and recovered original color in a few months as the iodate disappeared.

I once dosed Mg++ to bring it up to NSW levels. That was a couple of years ago. I haven't dosed since, and don't think it has drifted (at least last time I tested, which was a while ago).

IMO, with a Ca++ reactor I would dose iodide (and some fluoride and bromide)and a bit of limewater if the pH was always on the low side. I'd also dose some iron if I was keeping macroalgae, and some silica if I wanted sponge growth. Beyond that, I'd probably rely on water changes.

Some people don't dose anything and their tanks "appear" to be fine.

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Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Anonymous]

Hi all,

Just here to throw out a little of my experience. I run a 120 gallon proptank in my basement that has about one half of it overrun with xenia. I can't get rid of the shi!t fast enough. For the first 5 months of the tank's operation, it used only Reefbuilder and Turbo Calcium to maintain levels. No iodine in any form including feeding (consistently anyway, the tang in there got nori very seldom as he had plenty to eat). I now use B-ionic because its easier for my caretaker to use

However, if I were there to take care of it myself, it would continue to recieve only reefbuilder and calcium. And I know the xenia would not stop growing in the slightest.

See the mess-o-xenia here: http://www.tcnj.edu/~maughme2/proptank.html

FWIW, IME...

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Dan
Minotaur15 on #reefs http://www.tcnj.edu/~maughme2/

[This message has been edited by Minotaur15 (edited 16 February 2000).]

 

[Anonymous]

Minotuar15:

All animals need nitrogen and phosphate to grow. Where does it come from in your tank? Die-off from the live rock? Couldn't iodine be coming from the same source if the animals that are dieing contain iodine?

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Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Anonymous]

IMO, this is one of the areas in reefkeeping most prone to incorrect scientific conclusions and old wives tales.

I agree with the viewpoint that the hobby tests are nearly useless.

What is clear is that iodide does disappear from tanks at a relatively rapid rate. Other forms (e.g., iodate, which predominates in seawater) may not.

What is not clear to nearly everyone (myself included) is how much iodine they are actually adding to the tank in various forms. Seaweeds, for example, can contain large amounts of iodine. Dulse, for instance. When I feed it to my fish, I'm also dosing the tank with iodine. Perhaps more than I would in an inorganic supplement.

Consequently, people may say that iodine is unnecessary, and not realize that they are dosing it.

Likewise, xenia comprise an almost insignificant fraction of the total creatures in any given tank. Even if they do not need any iodine at all, many other creatures do (or may). Obviously, many seaweeds prefer to have iodine present as they concentrate it in their tissues.

Thus, the debate about iodine will continue to rage on (IMO), but the prudent person will ensure that some iodine gets into the tank in some fashion (I feel the same way about Br-, F-, and silica). The logic is that unless you have a reason to do otherwise, it's always best to mimic the ocean as closely as possible, and that includes iodine.

FWIW, I dose sodium iodide to my tank, but probably not so much as to try to maintain more than 0.01-0.02 ppm I-, which is a typical natural seawater level (as an aside, the concentration of iodide is not 0.06 ppm in seawater, but is typically a far smaller value; the 0.06 ppm value figures in the larger concentration of iodate).

My xenia has typically done quite well.

I do not recommend dosing iodate unless one is carefully monitoring its concentration as I have seen negative impacts on certain organisms.

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Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Anonymous]

Randy,
So if the tests are nearly useless, what does one do to insure correct iodine levels, say for a 200 reef, probably 140-150 actual gallons?

Also, what organisms have you seen a negative impact on?

And finally, do you dose Mg++? What additives do you recommend if using a Ca++ reactor?

thanks.


elvis

 

[Anonymous]

Minotaur15:

So where do you think the nitrogen and phosphorous are coming from?

You say you don't see iodine. You mean that literally, you tested and don't see any? Or figuratively you don't see how any could be coming from whatever source is supplying the nitrogen and phosphorous?

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Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Anonymous]

Randy,

Ok, I think I see were you're going. You're thinking that even tho I was not directly adding iodide by any source, there was still a source of iodide in the tank. Let's assume for a moment that you're right. The tank is supplying itself and maintaining a level of bioavailible iodine in the water for the xenia to use. Well, then stupendous, because it means extra dosing is not needed and if I were to do it I would be wasting money.

As far as testing for I myself..why bother with the entirely inaccurate tests? The end result of this is that I believe that supplemental and uncontrolled iodine supplementation in unnecessary in my systems. Whether you decide to stop using it is up to you.

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Dan
Minotaur15 on #reefs
http://www.tcnj.edu/~maughme2/

 

[Anonymous]

Dan:

I agree with your conclusion that iodine testing and supplementation are unnecessary to grow xenia. You are living proof!

I just doubt this specific evidence that your xenia are growing without any iodine in the water. The same evidence says they grow without nitrogen and phosphorous.

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Randy Holmes-Farley


[This message has been edited by Randy Holmes-Farley (edited 17 February 2000).]

 

[Anonymous]

Randy,

There's no die off that I know of. If there has been something dying in there for 6 plus months I think I would be having a few problems.

There are a total of three fish: a tang, a mandarin and a clown...theres some nitrogen. But I dont see any iodide being created or released there, espcially not enough to maintain 120 gallons of water with thriving corals all over. <shrugs>


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Dan
Minotaur15 on #reefs http://www.tcnj.edu/~maughme2/

[This message has been edited by Minotaur15 (edited 17 February 2000).]

 

[Anonymous]

I definitely don't add any iodide related supplements explicitly, and I too have a difficult time controlling xenia. In fact, the best xenia growth in my tanks occurs without any active supplementation program. This tank just gets the discarded water from changes in my larger tank. (By now I wish I'd never gotten the damn thing in the first place!)

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http://members.xoom.com/FriscoReef/

 

[Anonymous]

Randy,

Thats why its called anecdotal evidence

And you have made my point for me. Supplemental addition is unnecessary. Whether the I is being used or not by the coral is still unknown. (to me at least)

As to the P and N thing...arent they contributed by the fish in the system?

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Dan
Minotaur15 on #reefs http://www.tcnj.edu/~maughme2/

PS, why are you so up in arms about this?

[This message has been edited by Minotaur15 (edited 17 February 2000).]

 

[Anonymous]

The fish would contribute nitrogen (ammonia->nitrite->nitrate->nitrogen), but I doubt they would contribute phosphate. It's the food additions that have phosphate, then the fish eat the food and use up some, but not all of it, and finally the detritus decomposition releases the remainder of the phosphates.

Just my thoughts...

-Nathan

 

[Anonymous]

Actually, the fish won't contribute anything unless they are physically shrinking in size. They will be a sink for nutrients as they grow. They might change around the form of various elements, but they can't create them.

Yes, they release all kinds of waste products, but those must also enter the fish in some form. Again, there must be some ultimate source of all of these nutrients. Fish food is the most common source in most people's tanks.

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Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Anonymous]

Nathan, those are my thought as well.

Randy,

Well, following the logic you are using then - yes, my coral continues to grow and grow well with no input of N or P or I.

btw, the fish dont need to be shrinking in size just because there is no food input to the tank itself - they find food in the tank itself.

FWIW, IME, IMHO...

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Dan
Minotaur15 on #reefs http://www.tcnj.edu/~maughme2/

[This message has been edited by Minotaur15 (edited 17 February 2000).]

 

[Anonymous]

Dan:

You misunderstood me. I didn't say they were shrinking. If they are finding food, then they would likely be growing.

What I said was that they could only be sources of nutrients if they were shrinking. In other words, their tissues being metabolised and released to the tank as nutrients.

This is a simple situation. If no food is being added to the tank (e.g., phosphorous, nitrogen, iron, and any number of other things), then the corals cannot continue to grow indefinately. They must be getting nutrients from somewhere.

Carbon and oxygen can be obtained from the air, but not likely nitrogen (unless you have tons of cyano that is fixing nitrogen gas) and certainly not phosphorous (or iodine <G> ).


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Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Anonymous]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley:
Dan:

You misunderstood me. I didn't say they were shrinking. If they are finding food, then they would likely be growing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, thats what I just said. But you did said and I quote "Actually, the fish won't contribute anything unless they are physically shrinking in size." How is that? They do breathe and metabolize their food producing waste in the form of ammonia and solids.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

What I said was that they could only be sources of nutrients if they were shrinking.

I'm sorry, but I am defintely not seeing this working out logically. We all know that fish produce nutrients and they dont have to be shrinking to do it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

In other words, their tissues being metabolised and released to the tank as nutrients.

That aint happenin, they're alive and doing quite well.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

This is a simple situation. If no food is being added to the tank (e.g., phosphorous, nitrogen, iron, and any number of other things), then the corals cannot continue to grow indefinately.

Not at all. Very little food has been added on whole. The main source of food for the animals grows in the tank itself - e.g. amphipods and algae.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

Carbon and oxygen can be obtained from the air, but not likely nitrogen (unless you have tons of cyano that is fixing nitrogen gas)

Does it really have to be elemental nitrogen. I really think nitrogen compounds (NO3) are sufficient and are in fact used.

Can you see where it falls through?

In any event, the point of my posting to this thread is not that iodine is being used or not, but that supplemental additions of it are really unnecessary IMO.

And that is what has worked for me. Again, if you want to keep adding iodine, go right ahead, its not my job to tell anyone otherwise.

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Dan
Minotaur15 on #reefs
http://www.tcnj.edu/~maughme2/

 

[Anonymous]

You guys are so lame...(you know I'm joking). I think Randy is talking about the whole SYSTEM, and Dan is talking about COMPONENTS w/in that system (fish for example).

Randy is saying that if you don't add any P and N compounds to the SYSTEM, only ca and co3 then at some point your corals will stop growing.

Dan is saying that he does not feed the SYSTEM, but there is tight coupling as the fish are consuming and pooping within the system.

There is some form of nutrient cycling w/in the system also, which is another point that Randy was making. Possbibly I compounds are one of these nutrients.

HTH
jameso

 

[Anonymous]

Minotaur, Randy et al.

Thanks for answering my original question, which was whether or not you supplement I- for your xenia. I have been doing so, but am uncomfortable since I feel I cannot accurately monitor levels of I- in my tank. I know iodine, iodate, iodide all exist in the water. I also am not sure which form is supposed to be helpful to xenia and other corals and unsure which forms the test kits actually measure. It has been suggested that iodide protects corals from active oxygen (Delbeek & Sprung, Reef Aquarium Vol. 1), which I assume to be a free radical species of oxygen )(O2-. free radical of oxygen gas , OH. hydroxyl radical)that combines with a halogen such as iodine to form a nonreacrive species i.e. no more free radical. This is only their hypothesis, and they offer no scientific evidence.
Unfortunately, it seems that most often the only form of evidence we can get for our systems is anectotal. I was just trying to get a feel for what people were doing as far as iodide/iodine/iodate supplementation for their reef systems.
I originally posted this because I want to stop my iodide additions, but do not want to crash my xenia umbellata. I have brown kelp-like algae, dictyota, growing like crazy on my live rock. Thought that if I limited iodide additions, I may be able to slow its growth.
tom