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Jawbone

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I agree the Coral does not look as vibrant as it would if it were alive, and you are correct in that they will perish in a short term. But for now it was either perish in the LFS's Trash can a few months ago or perish in my tank in a few months. I made the call to take it home and have enjoyed them. perhaps this is cruel and unusual punishment in that the worms are short lived without thier symbiotic coral but I could not let it go to the trash can. So there it is.

I too was interested at one time in buying christmas tree worms as a nice addition to my living reef but not being an impulse buyer I did a little research and decided against buying one in the past. I have been maintaining tanks for what must be 15 years now and have had little if any of the same results as "the experts" but always listen when obvious results are had by all.
 

danmhippo

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jawbone:
<strong>I made the call to take it home and have enjoyed them. perhaps this is cruel and unusual punishment in that the worms are short lived without thier symbiotic coral but I could not let it go to the trash can. So there it is.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Haven't we went over this some time back? Unless you are getting this rock Way Way Way below his cost (meaning he took a hit), otherwise you are encouraging him "Hey, some sucker will always buy this kind of rock......Because it sells neverthless"

My LFS has stopped carrying them long time ago due to poor survival rate, but I doubt there are many LFS as concious as him. If it were me, I'd rather see it rot in their tank.......sorta lesson taught - in a hard way.

Jimmy
 

Jawbone

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There is one thing that going to disney land taught me and that was this. Every Customer and Every question is new ( To that customer ) - Meaning if I am standing next to the sign that says "Restrooms ahead 10 feet" and ask an employee of Disney Land " Hey where is the Restroom ? " They politley tell me where the restroom is.. They dont yell "Hey look at the sign you eeediot!"
I dont know who "WE" are that have covered this topic before and if you read through all the posts here you would see that I got mine free of charge so back off
 

Steve Richardson

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I have a chunk (about 5 Lbs.. a big piece) of porites that I bought about 2.5 years ago.. originally it had about 20 Spirobranchus worms on it. Very pretty.

Within 3 months the porites appeared to die completely, though the worms persisted. Surprisingly - the porites came back in a small area and regrew over the entire rock in about 3-4 months.

Anyway.. the number of worms in the rock has shrunk to about 10... though I have observed a few new tiny worms grow from little calcareous 'trails' into hefty adults. I think that process took about 6 months, perhaps more. I also have some pesky mushrooms invading which I have not taken care of and threaten the porites.

So... I would say that the colony is hanging on by a thread... but it has been surviving for more than 2 years, and has even produced new worms - not many though. Rob - Im surprised that there are no reports of this? I dont think Im mistaken... but its possible. There is a chance I had some small larvae that took a year before I noticed them.

this is an old pic. The porites look much better now:
spirobranchus.jpg


random comments,

Steve R.

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Steve Richardson ]</p>
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Biogeek

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Whoa - Things got kinda hostile all the sudden... Let's get back to exchanging information
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Jawbone - I know how hard it is to watch an animal languish and perish in the LFS when you're convinced it would fare better in your aquarium at home. I know that the shop has to lose money before they'll stop bringing in certain animals, but that doesn't make it any easier for me to walk away and let the animal die there either, and I must admit that I've done the same thing, myself - I for one certainly can't fault you for that! I think that the backlash is simply because your first response to Dustint came across as "don't worry, they're easy." I suspect that you did not intend that to be the message in your posst (because you later explain that you researched the requirements of the worms and decided against getting them in the past), but that that is how your initial post comes across, at least to me. Now having said that, I am not convinced that the worms in your picture are Spirobranchus. It's pretty hard for me to tell from the picture, but I see at least 2 different kinds of worms there. You notice how the feeding pinnules are arranged in a spiral whorl in the picture posted by Steve above? That spiral whorl is one of the easily identified characteristics of Spirobranchus, and I just can't tell for sure whether or not any of your worms have that specific pattern to the feeding crown. It looks to me more like some of them may have it, but others (like the small one you indicate on the upper left) look like they are almost certainly a single-layered double crown of feeding pinnules to me. I'm guessing that these worms that you see growing on your rock are one of the multitude of brightly colored species of Hydroides or Serpula (both of which can grow to reproductive maturity extremely quickly, and some of which are capable of reproduction in the aquarium) rather than the true "Christmas tree worms" of the genus Spirobranchus. I suspected that there was some minor misidentification or LFS common-naming problem at fault when your experience was contrary to what is known about the biology of this species.

It's not unbelievable at all that the worms are alive in the absence of the Porites. I'll have to get into the details of the association between Porites and Spirobranchus in detail for Advanced Aquarist somewhere down the line, but the short of it is that the worms are found to naturally associate with several species of corals, and Porites happens to be the coral associate in which the growth rate of these worms is actually the lowest. There is no evidence to suggest that the association is obligate for the worms, or that they gain any nutrition at all from the coral. Instead the association seems to derive from larval settlement preferences, and there appears to be considerable variation within and among worms in the preference of their larvae for different corals. It's really pretty complicated, but assuming that the worms gain sufficient food from suspension feeding in the aquarium, so far as marine biologists know right now, there does not appear to be any reason that they should require the coral to survive...

Steve - you're quite right that the worms could well have been small at the time that the rock was added. The larvae metamorphose at roughly 3-400 microns and they are essentially clear at that point (I have some pictures if you're interested?), so it's not like anyone would ever notice them if they were newly settled on the rock. Assuming that they can grow at the maximum rate observed to date, it would take about 1 year for them to reach 1 mm in diameter, and I could easily see a worm that size being overlooked on a Porites colony...

Of course, it is also possible that the worms really did reproduce and that my estimation of the survival probability of a long-term feeding larva in the average reef aquarium is wrong. I should have said that I know of no documented reports of reproduction for Spirobranchus in an aquarium to date. I have heard such reports, but every one that I have heard of was similar to yours when I spoke to the people - the worms always show up on the same rock, even when there are other colonies of the same species of coral in the tank. Even with a >80% larval preference for settling on a live coral, if the worms really spawned, we should expect some small proportion of the larvae to show up *somewhere* else in the tank. No one I have ever spoken to has seen them spread in the aquarium, but if yours do, please let me know! My feeling is that given the vast number of other invertebrate species that produce much larger and hardier larvae with much shorter larval periods, and that these animals still fail to settle when they are seen regularly spawning in the aquarium, I would put my money on the larvae not surviving the planktonic period...

Rob

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Biogeek ]</p>
 

Jawbone

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first the hostile thing..... I did not appreciate someone putting me into the sucker category INTENTIONALLY OR NOT because first he did not obviously read the preceding posts and then quoted me and retorted with <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Haven't we went over this some time back? "Hey, some sucker will always buy this kind of rock......Because it sells neverthless"

Anyway I zoomed in on the rock and here is a new pic or two. I will stick my hands in the tank in a few days to move it to a closer to the front location so I may get a better pic.

If they are not the "X-mas tree worm" I am curious to know what kind of worms they are then so I can get more of them because if these are going to do well in my tank then I want to figure out how to cover my entire tank with them. everyone that sees my tank asks what they are and I tell them they are filter feeding worms.

Its hard to tell in the picture but the one that I said was microscopic and is now larger in a couple of months is actually in an external calcerous tube that appears to be forming on the outside surface of the rock. all other worms are inside the rock in small holes. I also have another of the same type that has migrated to an adjacent rock inside of a calcerous tube as well.. (Not sure if he formed this tube or if it was adopted) anyway, mine it appears have moved but as you have stated they could have existed for some time and are just now maturing

xmas2.jpg


xmas3.jpg
 

Steve Richardson

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Rob -

Excellent point, which I had not considered. Yes.. the 'new' Spirobranchus worms were colocated on the same rock.. not elsewhere. In fact.. they looked to bore up from inside after clearly 'tunneling' along the porites. (they left trails like a mole.
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) And it did take about a year before they were really full sized.

As I said, the numbers have about cut in 1/2 over 2.5 years... at that rate I expect it will fail eventually.

good talking again Rob.
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-Steve R.
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dustint

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Well this has been some great info. Thanks so much Jawbone for your pictures and information on how you have been successful at keeping this difficult coral.

This isnt an exact science right, what lives in one tank will die in another with similar conditions. Until we all go out and buy microscopes and start treating our tanks as a project in microbiology we will have failure and success outside of what a well respected book or successful reefer will give as hard fast rules, to some extent right. So it seems to me that with a high level of husbandry and study of what a coral needs to survive, its certainly not immoral to give hard species a shot. I applaud Jawbone for his success with this coral. Keep up the good work.

I think I will hold off on my purchase for a while. My tank is about 8 months old, and I just dont feel its stable enough. Im trying to keep particles/food in the water to an absolute minimum, and this probable isnt great conditions for a filter feeder. I have to say that I think this may certainly be one of the reasons these corals starve, ie: skimming.

Thanks again,

Dustin
 

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