Technology difference between HQI and Mogul-MH

[spdntckt]

Hi Folks -

First, a bit of background. I was recently viewing someones reef while on travel and noticed that for what was claimed as 300W (2x150)(over a 65G) of MH lighting seemed to be much (MUCH!) brighter than the 350Watts of MH lighting over my system (3'x2'x2' - 90G). After chatting for a bit, i was surprised to to find out he was using AB-150W HQI bulbs on a PFO ballast - the same bulbs I am using (albeit in the 175 Mogul variant)

So I have been toying around with the idea of upgrading my lighting from 2x175 10K MH to 2x150HQI. Why? Because here in CA i'm paying approx $0.28 per KWH and it seemed like a better idea than upgrading two 250W Mogul MH bulbs (I swear these 150 HQIs seem to be as bright as a Mogul 250).

So here is my question... I understand the technology that drives MH bulbs (gas discharge), but what - specifically - is different about the double-ended HQI bulbs that make them run brighter? Does the different casing allow it to pull in more current? but if so, it must be at a different voltage because they only still draw 150 watts, right?

What do you folks think about upgrading from 175 mogul to 150 HQI. Anyone done it? worth the effort?

I was thinking of going the PFO-HQI ballast with the PFO -HQI pendants mounted inside my hood (i figure the cooling fans i have in there now for the 175mh should still be good enough..) How much clearance would I need for this setup?

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Mac1]

I am by no means an expert on the matter, but it's my understanding that having the double pole's allows the lamp to have a larger arc inside the tube... so it gives off more light, since it's exciting more gas (larger "pocket" than mogul lamps).

- Mac

 

[Mouse]

Go for the 250's just for the hell of it. At the end of the day there are people out there running 400's on 90 gallon tanks, and increasingly more people with 1000 watters. And the difference in set up costs between 150's and 250's is a couple of months savings (for me anyhow, and im no big fish), and when it comes to replace the bulbs its only an extra 20$ per bulb at most for allmost DOUBLE the output. Do the math, economically speaking it allways pays to go big in this hobby. Not to mention the growth of corals will probably save you a fair price in frags too.

Oh i forgot to mention, the biggest difference in light requirements comes in the depth of tank, if its over 25 inches most 250's wont penetrate. Its a much better rule of thumb than W/Gallon.

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mouse ]</p>

 

[Reef Man]

Go for the HQI´s !!!!!

You will get more PAR, not equal as Iwasaki. So if you plan to upgrade from the 175 watts to the 150 HQI watts will be great.

You can get the Ushio bulbs at great price here:

Businesslights.com

And maybe you want to read more about HQI´s

Lighting

HTH.

 

[bertoni]

Okay, so I took at look at businesslights.com.
For aquarium bulbs, they list the double-ended
metal-halide and the mogul-base bulbs. Are
the double-ended the HQI bulbs?

The 150-watt double-ended bulbs and the 175-watt
mogul-based bulbs are both rated at 80 lumens
per watt. If this data is correct (and I have
no idea whether it is), the light output
efficiency is the same for the two bulbs. Does
anyone have a reference for the PAR efficiency?
Both bulbs are rated 10,000 K, but of course
that's a crude approximation.

Then again, "initial lumens" is 8,000 for the
double-ended bulb, and 14,000 for the mogul-base.
Is there a typo there? 175*80 = 14,000, but
150*80 = 12,00.

Is the efficiency in the ballast? I guess I can
start trying to find the manufacturers' pages.

I'm so confused...

Jon

 

[Mouse]

The double ended ones are the HQI's. Not to sure about all the stats though, but they are better than the moguls for sure. And the aqualine 10K's are exactly that, where as other 10k rated bulbs usually start at about 13K and the colour shifts down to 10K at some point during its life, but go to the AB Aqualine web site and they have all thesales blurb there.

 

[pez]

Sanjay did an article in the most recent Aquarium and Reef annual. The 150 watt 10K HQI lamp outperformed the 175 mogal lamps. In fact, they actually outperformed the 250watt MH lamps. However, the HQI lamp was tested with a reflector, where as the other lamps were not. Reflector or not, I'm sure a HQI lamp will outperform a 175 mogul lamp.

-Tom

 

[ol'reefer]

HQI bulbs utilize an ignitor along with a capacitor. In reality a 150 HQI draws more amps than the standard 175 watt. This was due to the the original HQI's (Halogen Quartz Iodide) were harder to start and required more current to stay lit compared to Metal Halide based bulbs. Now most of the the HQI bulbs utilize a metal halide mixture which is easier to ignite, so we are now seeing mogul based bulbs with HQI arc tubes inside (AB's and UShios). HQI's are brighter because they draw more current and since the a metal halide mixture burns more efficently than a HQI mixture, the result is a brighter light.

(Same concept for 70's, 250's, 400's 1000 and 1500 watt HQI's)

The last time I checked, Osram was the only lighting company still making a true HQI mixture bulb. Most other bulb makers utilize a halide mixture.

 

[spdntckt]

Guys - thanks for the inputs/discussion.

Basically, in response to your thoughts, Mouse, the reasons for going HQI include CA utility costs.. Where I am, and with the tier of usage I am baselined at - i pay around .28 per kwh (Yeah.. we get screwed here.. great negotiators our politicians are...)


If we assume (for the sake of argument), that all ballasts are equally efficient at around 80% (probably a bit low), then for the different bulbs I get the following:

2x150w -> 360Watt total for 10Hrs/day = $30/mo
2x175w -> 420Watt total for 10hrs/day = $35/mo
2x250w -> 600Watt total for 10hrs/day = $50/mo
2x400w -> 960Watt total for 10hrs/day = $80/mo

So I was thinking.. Instead of going with 2x250 MH Mogul, if i could get close to the same light with a more efficient setup (2x150HQI), i could - essentially - save $20/mo ($240/yr). Not a negligable amount of money... On the same token, this example illustrates why there is no way I can go 400w MH...

Right now I am mostly LPS and Polyps.. Some Softies, and about 4 pieces of SPS. All seem to be doing fine under the 175s, but I am thinking a bit more light might look better... Plus.. its always cool to be more efficient (I am not into the brute force models.. I admire the Euros for their efficiency in many areas..)

Thanks again for all your comments!

 

[ThePuz1]

Ol'reefer, I'm off the topic alittle, but I recently upgraded to 250 Radium 20k bulbs. They said I needed HQI ballasts to run these, but I tried to save money and purchased these 250 ballasts that were not HQI. When I ran the bulbs, they lit for about 2 minutes and then shut down.I just wanted some input as to why this happened, and do I need the more expensive ballasts, Thanks

 

[Bodine]

At the risk of being "anal"......
Doesnt HQI really stand for Mercury..Quartz....Iodine.....HG=mercury....

Correct me if I`m wrong......PLEASE

 

[jamesw]

Heya Bodine,

HQI is not the name of two or three elements. It is a proprietary name coined by Osram which means Halogen Quartz Iodide.

Cheers
James

 

[Bodine]

I stand corrected!!!!!
Thank You for clearing this up.....

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ThePuz1:
<strong>When I ran the bulbs, they lit for about 2 minutes and then shut down.I just wanted some input as to why this happened, and do I need the more expensive ballasts, Thanks</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because they weren't getting enough voltage. Quite a common condition with many bulbs of German make. They run "better" on HQI because they are an HQI bulb and thus need more juice to fire correctly.

 

[914]

what about reflectors?

really, you can do a lot more with less with a good reflector...

there's a VAST difference between a true parabolic reflective surface and some simple HD flashing tacked up into the canopy....

http://www.marinedepot.com/a_lt_mh_spider_info.asp?CartId=

the Spider Light isn't really a _true_ parabolic, as that would have to have smoothly curved surfaces.... but it's pretty close.

the whole point of a parabolic is to
1) prevent 'restrike' of light. ie, don't reflect light back onto the bulb, as it's wasted and only makes the bulb hotter

2) direct all of the available light in one direction.

if you look at one of these reflectors with a bulb mounted in it, you'll actually see three bulbs... one actual and two mirror images. with a true parabolic you'll see the same three bulbs no matter what angle you look at the setup from.

That's the magic of the curves... the curves are such that the 90degree reflection (orthagonal) of light off of the reflective surface always ends up pointing 'down'.....

this would be really easy to explain if i could draw a picture.

anyhow, upgrading reflectors costs nothing in electricity, so if you don't have optimal reflectors yet... it might be your best next step.

good luck!

 

[ol'reefer]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ThePuz1:
<strong> When I ran the bulbs, they lit for about 2 minutes and then shut down.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Pretty much what Tom said, the standard ballasts dont have the current draw of the HQI to keep the bulbs lit. There are tricks you can do to a ballast to keep HQI bulbs lit, like using a larger capacitor, but that involves some electrical knowledge and a little tinkering. It works, but the light output is pretty dismal compared to what its supposed to be.

 

[dsb1829]

spdntckt,

I just swapped from dual 250w mogul based Ushio bulbs to a dual 150w aqualine fixture. I am very pleased with the intensity. To my eyes these 150w look near the intensity of the 250's.

A couple of thoughts for you to know. AB bulbs have been compared to Ushio HQI bulbs and found to produce about 30% more intensity. Magnetic ballasts drive hqi brighter. A lot of people over at RC have been dissapointed that their electronic ballast hqi isn't as bright as they were expecting. Electronics are more efficient at the price of lost intensity. PFO mini-hqi pendent users have some complaints on spread from the fixture.

One other thing that has already been mentioned, but I will point out again. The HQI draw more current than standard bulbs. The 150w HQI probably draws about the same electricity as you 175w halides. You can check http://www.pfolighting.com/aqwebsite/aqhomepage.htm for some specs on their ballasts.

 

[Anonymous]

hi.
I agreed with pretty much with 914 about the reflector. However...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

with a true parabolic you'll see the same three bulbs no matter what angle you look at the setup from.

I believe that there should be one huge bulb instead of three... minor point.

 

[spdntckt]

DSB and Company -

Thanks for all the great feedback/comments. If I do go with an AB type of system I guess I'll have to modify the canopy to make it work (EG, take the top off so I can hang the fixture above it).

Question DSB -> How heavy would you estimate the AB fixture to be?

Have a nice weekend!

 

[Jawbone]

Reef Man <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> You can get the Ushio bulbs at great price here:

<hr></blockquote>

Awesome link I cant believe I have been paying 100 apiece for these bulbs

I run that exact bulb and am glad to get a price break