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rharker

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Dana:

Advanced Aquarist is to be commended for attempting to bring to the attention of hobbyists a potentially useful new research technique. Pulsed Amplitude Modulation (PAM) has gradually gained acceptance among marine biologists and is now considered a useful tool for exploring the relationship between reef environmental factors and photosynthesis. There's every reason to think that it can benefit reefkeepers as well. Unfortunately, I’m concerned that the article suffers from several errors and questionable assumptions. The conclusion of the article is particularly disturbing given that it requires several “leaps of faith” in analyzing the study’s data. Since the intensity versus spectrum debate is so important, I hope you’ll address my concerns.

1. The Ocean Optics spectrometer peaks at 4000 counts and clips all signals that exceed this level. It is clear from the graphs that the sensor was too close to the bulbs and that the highest emission lines are clipped. The sensor should have been moved further from the bulbs in order to accurately measure the spectrum of each bulb.

2. The use of colored filters to estimate the proportion of various wavelengths of light is potentially useful, which is why I first introduced the concept to the hobby in the May/June 1997 issue of Aquarium Frontiers. The technique, however, is not without potential pitfalls.

The text notes measuring blue and red wavelengths. There is no mention of a green filter, but the “spectral composition” pie charts show proportions of blue, green, and red. Did you measure just blue and red and calculate green, or were all three bands measured? There is no mention of the brand or model number of filters. Despite your expressed reservations about the filters, the very best Schott RGB filters do a very good job of helping characterize the relative light quality of metal halide bulbs. Which filters did you use?

The two charts suggest that the 4000 K bulb produces about one-quarter blue light while the 12,000 K bulb produces about half blue light. It is not clear from either the charts or text whether total PAR is equal for the two bulbs. In my 1997 article I demonstrated that the German 20,000 K bulb appeared blue compared to a Japanese 6500 K bulb not because the German bulb produced more blue light but instead because it produces less light in the yellow and longer wavelengths. PAR measurements of the two bulbs at some standard distance would have been a useful addition to the data provided. Did you measure the bulbs in this way?

On many occasions you've expressed concern about UV and its impact on coral health. The spectrum graphs suggest a UV spike with the 6000 K bulb. Did you attempt to quantify this spike? Did you make any effort to filter UV during the PAM measurements?

3.You characterize respirometry as, “an inexact science, fraught with all the drawbacks of experiments conducted in...experimental chambers.” This seems a rather harsh description of a methodology that remains a cornerstone of photosynthesis research. In fact, most PAM studies also include respirometer data.

4. Perhaps the most troublesome comments are regarding the actual PAM assumptions and procedures involved in reaching your conclusions. You write, “If one were to measure the fluorescence of this same spot when exposed to different spectral qualities, an estimation can be made of the light source’s ability to promote photosynthesis.” This is a leap worth debating on several levels.

First, you note that the coral is acclimated to “~350 uMols.m2.sec.” (Presumably this is a typographic error. Mols in this context is not plural or capitalized and the phrase is written umol/m^2/sec.) You then note that the three treatments are “46, 85, and 127 mMols m^-2s-1.” I can’t reproduce the actual way that the script was written, but there are multiple problems with the way the units are listed. Assuming you meant umol/m^2/sec, the intensity you are measuring is well below the peak intensity to which the coral had been acclimated.

There’s no mention of attempting to acclimate the coral to these light levels. Apparently you removed the coral from the flow-through tank, placed it in “a shallow basin” and then took your measurements. Studies have shown PAM measurements to be sensitive to temperature. How was a constant temperature maintained in a shallow basin lighted by a metal halide bulb? Were the measurements alternated between bulbs or was intensity increased (or decreased) for a single bulb and then the second bulb evaluated?

Apparently your measurements were made at night. I'm sure you are aware of the literature suggesting that photosynthesis varies in the course of the day. Isn't there a problem looking at photosynthesis during a time when there would normally be no photosynthesis?

You mention using an Apogee sensor to measure PAR in the basin. The sensor has a serious measurement error measuring short wavelength light. Measuring the PAR of a 12,000 K bulb with an Apogee sensor can significantly underestimate total PAR. Since this number is part of the calculation of ETR, an error here is not trivial. Was any correction applied to the Apogee reading?

5. Your conclusion rests on figure 7 showing ETR versus PPFD. It purports to show no difference between the 6000 K and 12,000 K bulbs. There appear to be numerous problems with this graph. You allude to additional “information” not shown on the graph. What was this information?

The graph shows three data points per bulb per light level. Are there any other data points not shown? The three data points per bulb are regressed to produce the curves shown. Three data points are not enough to conclude that the regression curve should be non-linear. You could have just as well used linear regression with only three points. You must have decided a priori that you would generate a non-linear curve. It is also generally dangerous to extrapolate beyond the highest data point when regressing data, particularly when non-linear regression is arbitrarily applied. Since you have, we ought to consider its implication. Accepting that the regression line is accurate, the lines cross at 150 umol/m^2/sec. Since the coral is acclimated to a light level twice the highest shown, one wonders what would have been found at the acclimated light level. Assuming the lines continue as they appear to be headed, the 12,000 K bulb would have a much higher ETR at the acclimated PAR. This would suggest that at acclimated intensities, color does matter. Wouldn't you agree?

6. The Beer et.al article shows yields considerably higher than your measurements for Favia. What do you think caused your yields to be so much lower than in the Beer article?

7. You cite the Kinzie articles, but appear to have overlooked one key conclusion of the authors. Initially the authors concluded that light quality mattered, but then they rethought their conclusions when they realized that the acclimazation treatments had a greater impact on the corals than the actual treatment color. This is analogous to your coral acclimating to natural sunlight (essentially 5000 K light) and then being measured under 12,000 K light. Based on the Kinzie articles, one would hypothesize that the coral would be better adapted to the 6000 K bulb than the 12,000 K bulb. To test this hypothesis, one would have to acclimate the coral to each bulb before measuring. This apparently wasn’t done. Wouldn't it have been better to let the coral acclimate to each bulb before determining photosynthesis rates?

I hope you’ll address the questions I’ve raised. It appears that PAM may ultimately help us answer the questions you raise in the article, but unfortunately as far as I can tell, they can’t be answered with the data you’ve provided us. Unless issues such as acclimation are addressed, the question of light quality versus quantity remains unresolved.

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: rharker ]

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: rharker ]</p>
 

Dana Riddle

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Richard,
To answer your questions:
>>1. The Ocean Optics spectrometer peaks at 4000 counts and clips all signals that exceed this level. It is clear from the graphs that the sensor was too close to the bulbs and that the highest emission lines are clipped. The sensor should have been moved further from the bulbs in order to accurately measure the spectrum of each bulb. <<
Thanks. You’re incorrect on one point – the sensor was an adequate distance from the 12,000K lamp. Different story for the 4000K, the sensor should have been ~1” further from the sensor. The spectral charts were for demonstration purposes only, to show there are distinctly different characteristics between the two lamps, and I think we did that well enough. Let’s not confuse different portions of the experiments – the Ocean Optics instrument was not used in evaluating spectral components (a PAR meter and glass filters were used – see below). You’d have a valid point if we had graphed the Ocean Optics numerical data in the pie charts, but we didn’t.
>>2. The use of colored filters to estimate the proportion of various wavelengths of light is potentially useful, which is why I first introduced the concept to the hobby in the May/June 1997 issue of Aquarium Frontiers. The technique, however, is not without potential pitfalls. The text notes measuring blue and red wavelengths. There is no mention of a green filter, but the “spectral composition” pie charts show proportions of blue, green, and red. Did you measure just blue and red and calculate green, or were all three bands measured? There is no mention of the brand or model number of filters. Despite your expressed reservations about the filters, the very best Schott RGB filters do a very good job of helping characterize the relative light quality of metal halide bulbs. Which filters did you use?<<
The three filters used are available at a reasonable price from Edmund Scientific. It is my understanding they’re RGB robotic filters. Had I saved the numerical response of the Ocean Optics CCD, I would have used that information instead that of the rather crude filter method. I still use the glass filters for estimations of spectral bandwidths during SCUBA dives, but consider the OO instrument’s nanometer resolution superior. Since purchasing a spectrometer for my own use a couple of months ago, I’ve again tested these lamps. Unfortunately, I did not have time to chart the information in time for the publication deadline.

>>The two charts suggest that the 4000 K bulb produces about one-quarter blue light while the 12,000 K bulb produces about half blue light. It is not clear from either the charts or text whether total PAR is equal for the two bulbs. In my 1997 article I demonstrated that the German 20,000 K bulb appeared blue compared to a Japanese 6500 K bulb not because the German bulb produced more blue light but instead because it produces less light in the yellow and longer wavelengths. PAR measurements of the two bulbs at some standard distance would have been a useful addition to the data provided. Did you measure the bulbs in this way?<<
I have, but did not include the information. Ten pages were enough.
>>On many occasions you've expressed concern about UV and its impact on coral health. The spectrum graphs suggest a UV spike with the 6000 K bulb. Did you attempt to quantify this spike? Did you make any effort to filter UV during the PAM measurements?<<
6000 K? - Which one? Both have spectral spikes at 365 nm. Yes, I measured the UV-A output of these lamps with the UVP radiometer. At the low PPFD fluxes in the experiment, UV became a non-issue. Low UV has never been an issue with me. High UV is, but that wasn’t the case with either lamp and especially in the particular setup we used.
>>3.You characterize respirometry as, “an inexact science, fraught with all the drawbacks of experiments conducted in...experimental chambers.” This seems a rather harsh description of a methodology that remains a cornerstone of photosynthesis research. In fact, most PAM studies also include respirometer data.<<
That sentence is largely due to the discussion you and I had on Fishnet in which you rejected the results of the respirometer experiments, even those that met your own criteria. Interestingly, the shape of the P/I curves generated by the PAM and first-hour respirometer information are carbon copies.
PAM meters are very good at seeing saturation points and photoinhibition, but cannot determine minimal light requirements (compensation points) hence respirometers are still used.
>>First, you note that the coral is acclimated to “~350 uMols.m2.sec.” (Presumably this is a typographic error. Mols in this context is not plural or capitalized and the phrase is written umol/m^2/sec.) You then note that the three treatments are “46, 85, and 127 mMols m^-2s-1.” I can’t reproduce the actual way that the script was written, but there are multiple problems with the way the units are listed. Assuming you meant umol/m^2/sec, the intensity you are measuring is well below the peak intensity to which the coral had been acclimated.<<
I’ve seen the shorthand either way in literature, a matter of semantics really. For those interested in the correct symbol, press Alt and type 230 on the right-hand numerical keyboard of your keyboard.
Yes, we later (after data collection and analyses) knew these were subsaturating intensities, but had no idea at the beginning of the experiment. Why would we want to look ETRs at saturating light intensity?
>>There’s no mention of attempting to acclimate the coral to these light levels. Apparently you removed the coral from the flow-through tank, placed it in “a shallow basin” and then took your measurements. Studies have shown PAM measurements to be sensitive to temperature. How was a constant temperature maintained in a shallow basin lighted by a metal halide bulb? Were the measurements alternated between bulbs or was intensity increased (or decreased) for a single bulb and then the second bulb evaluated?<<
You are correct, temperature affects the outcome of many experiments and would have had an effect if we had not taken measures to control it. You’re probably not aware of the seawater system at NELHA, but one pump provides seawater at stable (but seasonal) temperature, while an intake at 3,000 feet depth provides cold water. Throttling simple ball valves can produce seawater temperatures from ~80° to ~40° F, and this was available to us. It was easy enough to grab a bucket full of 75° water and change the water between the trials. The metal halide lamps were at a sufficient distance from the Fungia/basin to prevent heat buildup and we had more of a concern with a temperature drop. In any case, the delta temperature remained less than 1° F between, and during, both trials.
>>Apparently your measurements were made at night. I'm sure you are aware of the literature suggesting that photosynthesis varies in the course of the day. Isn't there a problem looking at photosynthesis during a time when there would normally be no photosynthesis?<<
Dr. Oliazola, among a few others, literally wrote the book on diurnal xanthophylls cycles in marine algae. Miguel agrees with Beer and the other coral researchers, there should be a dark-adaptation period before these trials begin, and there was in both cases. It’s standard procedure in late night research at the asthaxanthin farms here in Kona.
>>You mention using an Apogee sensor to measure PAR in the basin. The sensor has a serious measurement error measuring short wavelength light. Measuring the PAR of a 12,000 K bulb with an Apogee sensor can significantly underestimate total PAR. Since this number is part of the calculation of ETR, an error here is not trivial. Was any correction applied to the Apogee reading?<<
The PAM meter cared not what the PPFD flux was – it measures the difference in fluorescence! However, it is part of the calculation and you are correct – PAR meters do slightly underestimate short wavelength radiation. We considered this after we knew the results, and since the 12,000K lamp is “bluer,” a correction would have strengthened our case.
>>5. Your conclusion rests on figure 7 showing ETR versus PPFD. It purports to show no difference between the 6000 K and 12,000 K bulbs. There appear to be numerous problems with this graph. You allude to additional “information” not shown on the graph. What was this information?<<
Since another article is in the works, I don’t feel at liberty to discuss the “mysterious” other data, although I will say it involves P/I curves with the PAM’s internal halogen lamp.
>>The graph shows three data points per bulb per light level. Are there any other data points not shown? The three data points per bulbs are regressed to produce the curves shown. Three data points are not enough to conclude that the regression curve should be non-linear. You could have just as well used linear regression with only three points. You must have decided a priori that you would generate a non-linear curve. It is also generally dangerous to extrapolate beyond the highest data point when regressing data, particularly when non-linear regression is arbitrarily applied. Since you have, we ought to consider its implication. Accepting that the regression line is accurate, the lines cross at 150 umol/m^2/sec. Since the coral is acclimated to a light level twice the highest shown, one wonders what would have been found at the acclimated light level. Assuming the lines continue as they appear to be headed, the 12,000 K bulb would have a much higher ETR at the acclimated PAR. This would suggest that at accimated intensities, color does matter. Wouldn't you agree?<<
We did generate a linear regression chart (in essence, no significant differences in ETR between the lamps). It is generally accepted that hyperbolic tangents are the best fit, and that’s what we presented in the article. Perhaps we should have presented both in order to please everyone. I agree, it is incorrect to place a lot of faith in the curve past the last set of data points, so I’ll ignore your “assumption” question.
>>6. The Beer et.al article shows yields considerably higher than your measurements for Favia. What do you think caused your yields to be so much lower than in the Beer article?<<
I’d have to research that, but the fluorescent yields were quite high when compared to marine algae. Likely due to zooxanthellae concentrations, though.
>>7. You cite the Kinzie articles, but appear to have overlooked one key conclusion of the authors. Initially the authors concluded that light quality mattered, but then they rethought their conclusions when they realized that the acclimazation treatments had a greater impact on the corals than the actual treatment color. This is analogous to your coral acclimating to natural sunlight (essentially 5000 K light) and then being measured under 12,000 K light. Based on the Kinzie articles, one would hypothesize that the coral would be better adapted to the 6000 K bulb than the 12,000 K bulb. To test this hypothesis, one would have to acclimate the coral to each bulb before measuring. This apparently wasn’t done. Wouldn't it have been better to let the coral acclimate to each bulb before determining photosynthesis rates?<<
I do not see an addendum to the 1984 Kinzie et al. paper. Probably doesn’t matter, as recent research has shown Fungia corals likely use a different method of photoadaptation – the total amount of chlorophyll A remains the same under different lighting conditions. This is a most important discovery within the context of this discussion.
Corals’ zooxanthellae begin to photosynthesize during early morning when shallow water corals are exposed to warm sky color temperature. This Fungia is in ~18” of water, so I think it qualifies as a shallow water specimen. Many corals begin shutting down photosynthesis later in the morning (through the Dia-Dino xanthophylls cycle) when intensity increase and color temperature increases. Conversely, photosynthesis increases during the afternoon when intensity drops and color temperature decreases. Since this coral is in such shallow water, it has acclimated to spectral shifts that few oceanic Fungia specimens will ever experience.
I have a slight problem with the insistence to compare corals from a “real reef” to those maintained in aquaria, including the 300-gallon coral tank at NELHA. These animals are in a captive environment! And I tend to agree - this Fungia is probably more closely adapted to the 4,000K lamp, so one has to wonder why the ETR wasn’t higher under this lamp, unless the effects of spectral quality are insignificant. One thing for certain, the Fungia’s zooxanthellae are more closely adapted to one lamp than the other…
>>I hope you’ll address the questions I’ve raised. It appears that PAM may ultimately help us answer the questions you raise in the article, but unfortunately as far as I can tell, they can’t be answered with the data you’ve provided us. Unless issues such as acclimation are addressed, the question of light quality versus quantity remains unresolved.<<
See above and comments to Eric. I think you’ve missed a point or two. I believe this information is valuable for reef hobbyists. No experiment is perfect, yet trends begin to develop after evaluating several sets of data. In my opinion, we can say that spectral differences do not have profound effects on rates of photosynthesis (especially after reviewing the linear graphs you so strongly support). We clearly stated that more research is needed, and that information will be presented in time. For now, spectral quality seems subordinate to light intensity.
This is likely the only article in aquaria literature history to have had a technical review by three PhDs ;-).
Dana
 

Eric Borneman

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I am extremely unqualified to comment on any of the technical aspects of this study, but do have some comments on the other parts...I'll get to my post's repsonse later when I get back from lab.

>>I do not see an addendum to the 1984 Kinzie et al. paper. Probably doesn’t matter, as recent research has shown Fungia corals likely use a different method of photoadaptation – the total amount of chlorophyll A remains the same under different lighting conditions.<<

You can't extrapolate that finding to all Fungia - or possibly all locations. Even if you could, a question might be why you chose to use such an atypical coral for the study, and then further extrapolated the results to all corals in general.

>>Corals’ zooxanthellae begin to photosynthesize during early morning when shallow water corals are exposed to warm sky color temperature. This Fungia is in ~18” of water, so I think it qualifies as a shallow water specimen.<<

What does the water depth have to do with it? What if there was only a candle over the tank? Richard, Sanjay's, and your own work have also shown the variance in intensity due to tank factors inclduing but not limited to internal reflection, refractance, water clarity, etc., and incredible attenuation with depth. Not to mention, once again, many other factors not related to light such as nutrients, water flow, etc.

<< Many corals begin shutting down photosynthesis later in the morning (through the Dia-Dino xanthophylls cycle) when intensity increase and color temperature increases.>>

There are a number of studies that show photoinhibition during high irradiance in some corals, but I am not aware of any that quanititatively relate it to color temperature increases. In fact, your own work here would usggest that it matters not.

>>Conversely, photosynthesis increases during the afternoon when intensity drops and color temperature decreases.<<

Once again, while color temperature decreases, do you have any references that suggest that this is a factor in the slight peak that takes place again in later afternoon?

>>Since this coral is in such shallow water,<<

shallow tank water

it has acclimated to spectral shifts that few oceanic Fungia specimens will ever experience.
I have a slight problem with the insistence to compare corals from a “real reef” to those maintained in aquaria, including the 300-gallon coral tank at NELHA. These animals are in a captive environment!<<

So are you suggesting that photoacclimation and photosynthesis takes place by a different biological process in aquaria??!!

>>And I tend to agree - this Fungia is probably more closely adapted to the 4,000K lamp, so one has to wonder why the ETR wasn’t higher under this lamp, unless the effects of spectral quality are insignificant. One thing for certain, the Fungia’s zooxanthellae are more closely adapted to one lamp than the other…<<

>>I believe this information is valuable for reef hobbyists. No experiment is perfect, yet trends begin to develop after evaluating several sets of data.<<

No one says it has to be perfect, but if Richard's technical comment s and my biological comments have any merit at all, the value is certainly questionable. After reading through the inital background material and seeing that, from what I can tell, a single Fungia of a single species from an aquarium was point tested with PAM under a couple bulbs one time and photoacclimation was totally unaccounted for, with the results and discussion indicating what they do, that this might be significantly misleading.

>> In my opinion, we can say that spectral differences do not have profound effects on rates of photosynthesis (especially after reviewing the linear graphs you so strongly support).<<

Amazing. One study and we can now summarily put this issue to rest for all corals (and now apparently all photosynthesis), also discarding the research of the past.

>> We clearly stated that more research is needed, and that information will be presented in time.<<

Or...maybe we can't?

>. For now, spectral quality seems subordinate to light intensity.<<

And how long ago was this shown? Twenty years ago? Longer?

>>This is likely the only article in aquaria literature history to have had a technical review by three PhDs ;-).<<

Not hardly. And notwithstanding, technical review hardly qualifies quality as evidenced by the amount of horrible work that appears even in truly peer reviewed primary literature.

Dana, perhaps oddly enough I agree with the basic premise of your work...light intensity most assuredly is more important than spectral quality, and there are scores of papers to support it. I have no doubt that you got the results you did, and that there is some real value to what you found. Its a question of, as Richard indicates, where you went with the limited data you produced. There's nothing wrong with limited data, there's nothing wrong with imperfect experiments, and look at the discussion its generated. So, I look forward to the next bit of data with anticipation, but just because you worked with some technology and some people reviewed your work doesn't make it bulletproof. If it is that good or valuable, submit it to a journal and see how those reviews come back.
 

jamesw

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Richard, you said:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
First, you note that the coral is acclimated to “~350 uMols.m2.sec.” (Presumably this is a typographic error. Mols in this context is not plural or capitalized and the phrase is written umol/m^2/sec.) You then note that the three treatments are “46, 85, and 127 mMols m^-2s-1.” I can’t reproduce the actual way that the script was written, but there are multiple problems with the way the units are listed. Assuming you meant umol/m^2/sec, the intensity you are measuring is well below the peak intensity to which the coral had been acclimated.

I'm afraid that that is an error due to translation on our part. When going from Print to the Web, these type of characters often get "garbled up." If yourself or Dana would specify where the incorrect units are used, we will correct it ASAP. Believe it or not, here is what the HTML looks like for one of those units:

"127 mMols m^-2s-1.AMPERSAND POUNDSIGN8221"

FWIW, we had a BEAR of a time getting the ionic superscripts right for Randy's article, but we did.

Eric and Richard, RE our peer review process, please wait to hear the functional specifications and guidelines for our peer review process before commenting further. I think informed criticism will be well received by our editorial staff, but the burden currently lies with us to publish our functional specifications and procedures/guidelines.

Cheers and keep up the good work gang,
James Wiseman

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: jamesw ]

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: jamesw ]</p>
 

Dana Riddle

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Eric,

I appreciate your comments and hope to have some time later to discuss the article.
Please don’t think I’m ignoring you or anyone else if my replies become sporadic due to various constraints on my time. Just some quick comments though:

>>You can't extrapolate that finding to all Fungia - or possibly all locations. Even if you could, a question might be why you chose to use such an atypical coral for the study, and then further extrapolated the results to all corals in general.<<

I agree. We were liberal in the article with words such as “suggest” and “might.”
>>What does the water depth have to do with it? What if there was only a candle over the tank? Richard, Sanjay's, and your own work have also shown the variance in intensity due to tank factors inclduing but not limited to internal reflection, refractance, water clarity, etc., and incredible attenuation with depth. Not to mention, once again, many other factors not related to light such as nutrients, water flow, etc. There are a number of studies that show photoinhibition during high irradiance in some corals, but I am not aware of any that quanititatively relate it to color temperature increases. In fact, your own work here would usggest that it matters not. Once again, while color temperature decreases, do you have any references that suggest that this is a factor in the slight peak that takes place again in later afternoon?<<

The point I’m trying to make is that this coral, since it is in a very shallow tank, is certainly subjected to degrees of daytime color temperature shifts that it would not see at the 40’ depth where it was collected. It, and the other corals (except for a Montipora), have adapted nicely to the rather warm color temperatures.
>>So are you suggesting that photoacclimation and photosynthesis takes place by a different biological process in aquaria??!!<<

Of course not.

>>Amazing. One study and we can now summarily put this issue to rest for all corals (and now apparently all photosynthesis), also discarding the research of the past. And how long ago was this shown? Twenty years ago? Longer? <<

I would hope that no chooses to do that. These results of these experiments are footnotes to our existing knowledge and one can choose to regard them as they wish. You probably have the Proceedings from the ’99 Marine Ornamentals conference. Look on page 70 to see the results of experiments conducted several years ago. The Stylophora was grown in an aquarium under a 4,000K lamp and had several months to adapt to that lamp. No significant difference if the P/I curves of the two lamps. Just another tidbit.

>>Dana, perhaps oddly enough I agree with the basic premise of your work...light intensity most assuredly is more important than spectral quality, and there are scores of papers to support it. I have no doubt that you got the results you did, and that there is some real value to what you found. Its a question of, as Richard indicates, where you went with the limited data you produced. There's nothing wrong with limited data, there's nothing wrong with imperfect experiments, and look at the discussion its generated. So, I look forward to the next bit of data with anticipation, but just because you worked with some technology and some people reviewed your work doesn't make it bulletproof.<<

Agreed. I didn’t expect the article to be an end, but instead a start.
Aloha,
Dana
 

rharker

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dana Riddle:
<strong>
I do not see an addendum to the 1984 Kinzie et al. paper. Probably doesn’t matter, as recent research has shown Fungia corals likely use a different method of photoadaptation – the total amount of chlorophyll A remains the same under different lighting conditions. This is a most important discovery within the context of this discussion.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The 1987 article was essentially an addendum to the 1984 article. I suggest that you read it. Here's what Kinzie had to say:
"While acclimation intensity had a pronounced effect (on photosynthesis), the results also showed that the color of the acclimation treatment influenced the photosynthetic responses of the corals. The color of the light used in the measurements of photosynthesis had much less effect on the photosynthetic response of the corals."

Specifically, the corals grown in blue and green light differed more than the corals tested under blue and green light. By testing one coral grown under 5000 K light and testing it under 6000 K and 12,000 K light you've just replicated a portion of Kinzie's 1987 study. The problem is that you've come to a conclusion contrary to his.

Richard Harker

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: rharker ]</p>
 

rharker

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jamesw:
<strong>I'm afraid that that is an error due to translation on our part. Believe it or not, here is what the HTML looks like for one of those units:

"127 mMols m^-2s-1.AMPERSAND POUNDSIGN8221"
</strong><hr></blockquote>

James, don't be too rough on yourself. I doubt that it is an HTML error. As written this number is 127,000 umol/m^2/sec, or a little over 60 times natural sunlight. Where can I buy that bulb?
Correct usage is uE or umol, never mMols unless we're discussing Icarus!
icon_smile.gif


Richard Harker
 

Dana Riddle

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Richard,
>>The 1987 article was essentially an addendum to the 1984 article. I suggest that you read it. Here's what Kinzie had to say:
"While acclimation intensity had a pronounced effect (on photosynthesis), the results also showed that the color of the acclimation treatment influenced the photosynthetic responses of the corals. The color of the light used in the measurements of photosynthesis had much less effect on the photosynthetic response of the corals." <<

Though I would like to think the highlighted sentence supports our findings, it doesn’t.

>>Specifically, the corals grown in blue and green light differed more than the corals tested under blue and green light. By testing one coral grown under 5000 K light and testing it under 6000 K and 12,000 K light you've just replicated a portion of Kinzie's 1987 study. The problem is that you've come to a conclusion contrary to his.<<

If “problem” is defined as “a source of vexation or distress”, then I’m sorry you’re putting yourself through that.
To claim that we’ve merely replicated Kinzie’s experiments is a bit of a stretch. Kinzie did not use metal halide lamps in his research. I would expect the outcome to be different; after all, these metal halide lamps are “full spectrum” lamps and not Kinzie’s filtered sunlight with rather limited bandwidth.

I suppose we could debate forever. I’m not particularly interested in doing that and would rather use my limited time more constructively.

James Wiseman had a very good idea, and I would like to carry it one step further.

I challenge all interested parties to participate in developing a protocol for a photoadaptation experiment. It’ll take a good deal of effort and some personal expense to get this project off the ground, but I’m very interested in further investigations.

You, Eric and others have a good grasp on the issues facing reef hobbyists and are in good position to comment on the protocol. I encourage everyone to do so.

Protocol
Conduct another set of PAM experiments using the PAMs internal halogen lamp. PPFD values: 0,12, 25, 50, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200 µmol·m2·s1.
Maintain the Fungia in an aquarium with flow-through of natural seawater (temperature controlled at ~24° C). Use a pendant luminaire (easily adjustable height for maintaining relatively constant PPFD) and a 4,000K lamp, at say 350 µmol·m2·s1. After 30 days, generate a P/I curve using the PAMs halogen lamp at the PPFD values listed above.
Repeat the procedure using the 12,000K lamp, followed by another set of standardized PAM measurements.
Graph the results using a hyperbolic tangent and report.

A true advantage of AAOL is the immediate interface with hobbyists around the globe. Those truly interested in resolving the spectrum v. intensity issue have every opportunity to participate. I await your response.
Dana
 

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