How do I treat Ick?

[EnvironmentalWacko]

Reefers, et al,

One of my fish appears to have Ick. The evidence
I have is the white spots on the scales.

1. If this is actually Ick, how would you treat this? Would you leave it take it's natural course? Or would you treat it?

One caveat it that there is live rock in the tank and issolation isn't an option. I have a UV sterilizer currently working 24hours.

2. How about "hyposalinity"? Is this acually
a solution? What would the specific gravity
number be?

3. What about Garlic? I read the posting
http://www.geocities.com/horge1218/garlic.html
but after reading this I see that the garlic
story somewhat anecdotal.

Would you put fresh chopped garlic into the
wet/dry sponge filter?

4. I have 5 pepperment shrimp. Is it their
natual programmed behavior to clean the fish?
I've never witnessed this.

EW.

 

[Terry B]

I would not treat it for just one spot. You may get lucky and it clears up on its own. Feed the fish garlic soaked food and wait. You obviously do not quarantine so you have painted yourself into a corner. Hyposalinity works better than anything else but requires a specific gravity of 1.009 at 77 to 80F (16ppt or less salinity). You cannot use hypo or copper with live rock or inverts. UV lights are generally ineffective for ich. Cleaner shrimp are not a cure either.
Terry B

 

[wnfaknd]

The questions is you should be asking is why do you ick?
Ick happens because fish get stressed out. Find the cause of the stress and ick will go away.
Fish get stressed by many factors such as big temperature swings between day and night, bad water chemistry, water chemistry swings, your son or daughter constantly tapping on the glass and spooking the fish

poor aclimation procedures and anything else that just isnt natural for the fish. Find whatever is bugging you fish, fix it, and hopefully it will go away.

Treat the cause, not the disease.

 

[TimberTDI]

You should ask kirtis. I hear he's become a master at solving ich. LOL

When In Doubt Throw it Out !

 

[danmhippo]

EW, usually hypo salinity works pretty well, except you have to fish the sick one out, which may be difficult. Peppermint shrimp usually don't act as cleaners.

Has there been any changes in maintenance schedules recently? Have you added anything into the tank within the last week? You mentioned there are no dead spots in the tank, would you consider your tank currents too strong? (I am just trying to rule out possibilities)

What kind of fish is it that appears to be getting ich? What other fishes are there, and how big is your tank? (could there be aggression issues here?)

Jimmy

 

[Terry B]

Stress does not cause ich a parasite does. Stress only makes fish more suceptible to it. You cannot treat just one fish. All fish that have been exposed must be treated whether they have spots or not. If you want to read all you ever wanted to know about stress but were afraid to ask, then I can tell you where to read about it. I have written extensively about stress in fish in a nine part series of articles (approximately 14,000 words). They may not appreciate it if I mention the website where you can see it so you will have to email me for that info. I have also extensively studied and written about Cryptocaryon irritans (ich). If you get rid of the parasite then no amount of stress can lead to ich.
Terry B

 

[EnvironmentalWacko]

Terry, wnfaknd,

My interests as a marine reef keeper extend into
the ethics (PC for moralality) and their
mortality. On that note:

The sources of stress are not obvious because:
1. The Nitrate, Nitrite are very good.
2. The Ammonia and Alkalinity are very good.
3. The calcium free ion measure at 350ppm
4. The tempature, for winter, is set at 75 fareheit. The swing is +- 0.2.
5. I have a 10gallon refugium hooked into the
main tank. The main benifits I expect are:
-Reverse Daylight Photosynthesis.
-5" very-fine aragonite live sand.
The RDP's main benifit is that the PH is
regulate.
6. I don't have "dead" spots where water doesn't
have a current.
7. The main aquarium is 55 gallon w/ 220 watts
of CF's and the refugium is 10 gallon w/72 watts
CF. I run both actinics and 10K bulbs.
8. I have coral line algae growing on the glass.

The bad thing I can think about as a source of
stress is that the protein skimmer doesn't really
collect protein in the cup. It just cakes up
inside the column.

Sorry for the core dump.

EW

 

[EnvironmentalWacko]

What about the protein skimmer? Does it
factor into the protozoan equation?

 

[Terry B]

hhinojosa,
Could you please explain exactly how you implemented hyposalinity? What did you use to measure the salinity? What level did you use for treatment? Did the fish have a secondary bacterial infection? When performed correctly, hyposalinity is as close to a 100% effective as any treatment for any fish disease that I have ever seen. Just wondering what may have gone wrong.

 

[EmilyB]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>If you get rid of the parasite then no amount of stress can lead to ich.
Terry B <hr></blockquote>

I think I can actually say I understand that statement. The tank was without ick, I truly believe. I made a huge mistake in trying to remove the substrate without vacuuming it first ( I had to remove the sand substrate because the tank was converted to FOWLR with a sand DIVING trigger ). It was a horrid procedure, and the fish looked like hell, as we went through water change after water change. But those fish, as stressed as they were, never got ick.

However. Now, into the future.

Good tank no Ick. A new fish introduced, and ICK.
Not wanting to tear down the entire structure, it starts...a mess of pepper sauce first and copper later, and the newcomer is dead. All original fish are fine, and afterwards, we did everything we could to change 100% of the water and scrap the remedies. Ick is there now, I presume...but my question is, since the remaining fish are so resilient, what happens to the ick ?

 

[20g]

I just recently experienced the same problem. I decided to treat the tank with selcon ang garlic and in about two days there was no sign of ick. Go to a health food store and pick up a bottle of kyolic garlic(not cheap though) soak your food in selcon and about 4 or 5 drops of the garlic for about 30 min. If this treatmnet works and the fish shows no sign of ick within a couple of days, keep using the garlic for about 3 to 4 weeks. Right now I am on week three and still no signs of ick. Hope this hepls you.

 

[Terry B]

If you only had one fish that had just one spot like you said in your original post, then it may not have been ich anyway. There are other things that can cause little white spots. It is part of the parasites natural life cycle to fall off the fish and reappear in larger numbers. You may be in the calm before the storm right now. Your fish may not have had ich at all, or it sometimes can go away without treatment if it doesn’t get widespread first. Like I said in my first post feed the fish garlic soaked food and wait to see what happens. In the meanwhile you would be smart to set up a quarantine tank. You can use a large plastic garbage can for a Qtank.
Terry B

 

[hhinojosa]

I have battled ich twice in two different tanks.

On my first 29 gallon. I tried Maracyn 1 & 2 according to the directions. At first the white spots subsided. They came back after less than a week. I tried hyposalinity but my fish still died.

On my 50 gallon, I had a purple tang covered in ich. A clerk at a LFS recommened a product called Kick-Ich. It took a couple days, but the tang recovered.

Just my $.02

 

[naesco]

Unless this case is very severe begin now with the garlic treatment programme.
I has worked for me and many others on this board.
Good Luck

 

[mimosa]

Try fresh water dip (no salt) for 3-5 minutes. Keep an eye on the fish during the fresh water dip. It might loose its balance temporarily, don't worry, slowly help it to swim around. Make sure that the fresh water is the same temporature as the tank water and it has been treated for chlorine.

 

[Ben1]

The freshwater dip is IMO a bad idea.

A. It causes undue stress

B. The parasites dont actually die in fresh water they mearly fall off the fish. If the fresh water gets in the tank the parasites do as well.(Martin Moe Jr. MAR)

C. Thid method doesnt help with the free swimming or parasites in the sand ready to hatch. The fish will then be stressed and just get the ich again.

FWIW I had ich once and used garlic to no effect. I got Stop Parasites by Chem Marine and it sucked. I got Ruby Reefs Kick Ich and had great results with all fish recovoring. I just intrudeced a new tang who came down with Ich so I am off now for my 1 hour drive each way to get the Kick Ich. HTH

 

[Rich-n-poor]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> The bad thing I can think about as a source of
stress is that the protein skimmer doesn't really
collect protein in the cup. It just cakes up
inside the column.

<hr></blockquote>

I think the problem maybe water quality causing undo stress for the following reasons:

you state the amonia, nitrite, nitrate are all "good" but give no readings.

IMO amminia should always read 0 in a cycled tank. My nitrite always reads 0 also. I have never seen nitrate above 5 ppm since switching to a sandbed. and I do no water changes.

If as the above quote illustrates the skimmer is not functioning properly the nutrient export is not happening and waste is breaking down in the tank that should be removed.

Have you tried adjusting the skimmer ? my backpak adjust simply by pushing the collection cup down further in the water column thus producing a wetter foam HTH

_________________
Irritable Bowel Syndrome Forum

 

[EnvironmentalWacko]

I'll try to address all the questions and
statements received since my last reply.
Thanks you everyone!

1. The fish that showed indications of ick is a
hippo tang. I've just started learning that
this species is very easily stressed.

2. Hyposalinity: I'm not sure, outside of a
ICU issolation tank, how practicle hyposalinity
is. First of all, it obviously requires me
to SLOWLY adjust the sodium concentration. This
could take weeks to go from a S.G. of 1.024 to
1.007 and back. If this was a nice linear
change, the stress could be null and void.

3. Kick-Ick: I'll look into using this. Is
it safe for the invertebra and the corals?

4. Terry, I'm seriously considering the
issolation tank in-a-barbage-can. This can
be my tri-age unit.

5. Protein Skimmer: Thought the protein skimmer
isn't working to my satisfaction, it still "cakes"
the protein inside the column. Surely anyone who
is an advocate of protein skimmers wouldn't like
this one.

I'm going to buy a new one!

I have a 2" calcium-carbonate sand bed in the 55.
And there is a 5" ultra-fine aragonite sand bed
in the 10g reverse-daylight-photosynthesis
tank.

6. I change 5% water weekly. There is 24
hours of kalkwasser drip (carbonic acid).

7. Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite are measured as
the absolute lowest on the color sticks.

 

[Terry B]

The protien skimmer is a seperate issue. There are only two proven effective treamtents for ich: copper or hyposalinity. All the others are hit or miss at best. The only alternate treamtment that shows any promise is feeding the fish garlic soaked food. Its your choice, gamble with something inconsistent or go with a sure bet.
You can perform hypo right in the display if it doesn't contain live rock, inverts, live sand, sharks or rayfish. The salinity can be reduced over two days using two water changes a day. Any treatment for ich should last a minimum of three weeks. Check the pH and add a buffer as needed when you use hypo.
Terry B