Nitrate problem will not go away - Help??? 2 year old setup.

[Iwannabeamermaid]

I have a 2 year old 55 gallon tank. It has a 3 to 4 inch sand bed. The bottom 1 inch is fine grain sand....and the top 2 to 3 inches is the larger grains...yet still smaller than crushed coral. It has about 80 pounds of live rock. The rock is covered with the corealian algae and full of critters. The sand also has critters in it as well. My ammonia level, ph, and Nitrite is 0. Calcium level is 380....iodine is fine. I have a Bak Pak protein skimmer....plus a large Penguin filter and a corner filter inside the tank. I'm not sure what else you may need to know..... I have one medium size Naso Tang and two Peculia clowns. I've had them for over a year....as well as a yellow leather. I'm about to invest in about $600 worth of lights....so I can get more coral....but if I can't get this Nitrate level down....I might as well not. I have never been able to make it completely go away....and tonight....when I tested, it just about went off the chart. I changed 12 gallons of water and it was still full of Nitrate. I added some "Prime" hoping that would help. I only feed once a day...2 little cubes of Mycin brine shrimp and some seaweed for my tang. I also have a Sally Light foot crab and a starfish. Does anyone have any suggestions on what I need to do to get rid of this Nitrate?

Thank you.

 

[jeffsdesigns]

i invested in a refugium.
I have the same problem with my 5 yo tank and was told they would get a hold of it.
The refugium I got was from a guy that builds them.
I got a 2nd largest sized..just like the CPR, 10 pounds of agranite live sand, tons of bugs and stuff.
I was told that Capalra will get ahold of your nitrates and lower them.
My refigium has been set up for 2 weeks and notice the nitrate levels dropping fast.

Jeff

 

[Anonymous]

Iwannabeamermaid wrote:

I changed 12 gallons of water and it was still full of Nitrate.

what is the nitrate level of the new s.w.?(use rodi :wink: )

I have a Bak Pak protein skimmer....plus a large Penguin filter and a corner filter inside the tank.

remove all the mechanical media,use the filters as circulators only.upgrade the skimmer.

what is the nitrate level?(didn't see a number)

 

[stevebydac]

I agree with vitz completely. Your mechanical filters must be trapping nitrogen causing compounds--remove them. Let your skimmer (or better yet a better skimmer --EuroReef or Aqua C) get rid of it. A refugium is supposed to help as well. You have enough live rock for biological filtration.

 

[Nelliereefster]

Some added help:

In a "Reef" system, it is not desired to have any media that sets up a wet-dry configuration or a "bio-bed".

The LR will naturally metabolize nitrate, but cannot "step-up" to mass production when a canister or wet-dry sump is pumping out nitrate at the rapid rate.

As a matter of course, most, if not all potential bio-bed filter media should be removed from a reef system. Obvious exceptions are sponge pre-filters (which should be cleaned under the tap frequently)

LR is as near a perfect filter as you can get, but it has limitations in throughput or processing ability. If any biological media (I'm talking about bio-balls, sponges, artificial bacteria beds, etc...) are used, you bias the system to overproduce nitrate and the rock cannot keep up.

A refugium, if properly constructed with either a plenum or deep sand bed, will expand nitrate reduction capability, and eventually achieve steady state, as long as bioload stays relatively constant. You can save a lot of money by DYI-ing your fuge by using a rubbermaid container, and simple "lights of America" light. (Total under $100, stocked!!!) If you want plans and advice on DYI fugees, just let me know.

The only filtration I use is shallow sand beds in the tanks, and a plenum/refugium stocked with 4-5 species of macro algae. Occassionally I use carbon for water clarity, and sometimes a phosphate absorber, but that's it.

My nitrate is undetectable, so are phosphate and the entire ammonia cycle.

 

[fishfarmer]

LR is as near a perfect filter as you can get, but it has limitations in throughput or processing ability. If any biological media (I'm talking about bio-balls, sponges, artificial bacteria beds, etc...) are used, you bias the system to overproduce nitrate and the rock cannot keep up.

I agree with this as well. Your tank probably can't handle the load, even though you think it is understocked and you don't feed much.

What is your nitrate reading?

Do you have any algae growing in the tank?

How large is your Naso and how much seaweed do you feed it daily?

If your tank is relatively free of algae because the Naso is consuming it all, your nitrates will probably continue to be high since you aren't exporting algae, but there could be other factors contributing to high nitrate like was stated above, water source and trapped organics.

 

[Anonymous]

Iwannabeamermaid-

fwiw-i don't wanna get 'police-ish', but the naso, in addition to being not that suitable strictly on a size basis for your tank-represents a huge bioload for a 55.try to imagine how many percs it would take to equal your naso, in terms of bioload. :wink:

 

[Iwannabeamermaid]

Okay, I'll take out my filters.

Nelliereefster....I am most definitely interested in how to set up a refugium for less than $100 dollars. Can you send me that detail? I sure do appreciate it.

Vitz....I'll also check the Nitrate level of the new salt water prior to me putting it in my tank. I'll mix up some today. Maybe my water filter needs to be replaced as well.

It was at 80 ppm after the water change and before I put in the Prime. I was afraid to get up this morning. I don't like putting chemicals in my tank to lower it. All are still alive.

If this does not work..I'll upgrade my skimmer.

Once again...thanks everyone.

 

[Anonymous]

Iwannabeamermaid-

pardon my ignorance, but what is 'prime'?

 

[imow]

I would recomend getting a turkey baster and blasting all your live rock (that is if you dont already do this) Especially after 2 years, stuff has a tendency to accumulate. I had the same problem and this was the answer. You will be amazed how much crap is there.

 

[Nelliereefster]

There are several ways to skin the cat on DYI fuge set-ups.

Depending on your stand/configuration, here are a few ideas:

In the stand:

Buy the biggest "square" rubbermaid container that will fit in your stand. Figure out what pumps/powerheads/bulkheads you'll need. One trick is to place it ontop of your sump. Another option is to place it outside the stand in its own cabinet, but asthetics/space/plumbing are impacted.

Inside the rubbermaid, you'll want 3-4 inches of fine sugar aragonite, or a plenum (if you want plenum instructions let me know)

Stocking: On top of the sand, you'll want to place a scattering of live rock. It's best to use "uncured" rock that has macro algae fragments attached. This rock can be found scattered on the bottom of your LFS's rock vats. Buy only the crappy large rubble pieces for this use -ask for a discount... Also, place as many species of Macro Algae as you can find. Some will take, others will not.

Plumbing: Here's where the options abound... One method is to "T" off, from the tank overflow, a separate line that feeds into the fuge. With this method, the fuge wiil have to be elevated higher than the sump, so that it will overflow into the sump.
Another option is to put the fuge above the reef on a shelf, use a large powerhead to feed it, then let it overflow back into the reef. This option works well if you're trying to generate a flow of microfauna into the reef.
Yet another option is to have the tank overflow directly into the fuge. You'll want to baffle incoming water so as to not create a sand blender, but this works well as a sediment/detritus trap.

Lighting: Check out the Lights of America thread within this forum. You can buy a LOA outside flourescent 6500K light for around $50-60 bucks.
Leave the lights on 24/7 until you have a flourishing forest of algae growth. Then decide if 12/12 is what you want...

All said:

Rubbermaid container approx $5-10
Live rock rubble approx $15-20
Sand approx $20-30
Lights approx $50
Plumbing approx $15

So maybe around $100-125.

Fuges are IMO, the best filtration method, and perhaps the more "natural" way to go. Plus, they expand water volume, stabilize pH, export nutrients, provide a buffering space to add chemicals, and are their own little wonderland of critters. You'll see things in a fuge that you'll never see in a large tank because of predators, etc...

Let me know what you decide on. DYI fuges save hundreds!!! If you need more details, just post!!

Nellie

 

[Anonymous]

I have a similar problem. My current tank is a 29gal with the dual Peguin Biowheel and a undergravel with two Penguin 660 powerheads. I wanted and get lots of water movement. There is always a trace of Nitrates. I understand that I need to change the system and more so why now that I have been lurking here and on ReefCentral. But I am at a loss as what to do about the undergravel filter. I am using the coarse argonite type gravel.

What I thought I might do is convert a 45gal near the 29 and adding another 29gal. All next to each other. Using the current substrate to seed the other tanks and adding argonite sand/crushed coral for a nice mix. With overflows I might get enough flow with the tanks at different heights for one large system. Thus I can get rid of the undergravel systems, or should I leave them and simply cover them over?

A single return pump simplifies things and will provide a slower flow thru the 45 than the 29's and should help with different types of water movement environments.

My other question is the frequent recommendation with the plastic Rubbermaid containers. Do the lighting systems damage the containers over time? The sun will make them brittle given enough time.

Thanks

 

[Iwannabeamermaid]

Vitz, I have a lot of the corealean algae in my tank....not too much of the green stuff though. Mr. Naso pretty much does take care of that. Prior to putting him in my tank....it was 'FULL' of green plants. He ate them all in a week. My Naso is about 3 inches long and I feed him one sheet of the seaweed a day. Believe it or not...my Nitrates were still high even with all the green plants.

It sounds like I certainly do not need to get any more fish. I can add corals though, right?

Prime is a product by Seachem that detoxifies Nitrite and Nitrate. It also removes Chlorine, Chloramine and Ammonia. as well as provides a slime coat and essential Ions. I only use it when my Nitrate is so high it is unmeasurable. I think it is the only thing that has saved my fish a couple of times.

I did blast my rock last weekend with the water change....with my power heads. I also bought a new powerhead today. The water looks tooooo turbulent to me. My corals seem to like it, but my fish seem terrified. I thought that might help keep that stuff circulating.

Course sediment may be trapping detritus...Hummm....would a sand filter type fish help? Other than me having toooo many fish already...I was afraid he might eat all of my little live critters I have worked so hard to raise in my sand bed.

The guy at the Pet Shop also mentioned that I might try to clean the blue plastic in my Bak Pak by swishing it around in a bucket of salt water. It seems this would wash all of the critters out of it as well.... Maybe not...

Thanks again for all of your input.

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz, I have a lot of the corealean algae in my tank....not too much of the green stuff though. Mr. Naso pretty much does take care of that. Prior to putting him in my tank....it was 'FULL' of green plants. He ate them all in a week. My Naso is about 3 inches long and I feed him one sheet of the seaweed a day. Believe it or not...my Nitrates were still high even with all the green plants.

It sounds like I certainly do not need to get any more fish. I can add corals though, right?

i'd advise against it, at this stage in the game-better to correct the system first, and get properly equipped,first-i'd also suggest some reading-you should really have a more thorough understanding of nitrates and other issues before you plunge into corals, if you wantto be successful, long term :wink:

Prime is a product by Seachem that detoxifies Nitrite and Nitrate. It also removes Chlorine, Chloramine and Ammonia. as well as provides a slime coat and essential Ions. I only use it when my Nitrate is so high it is unmeasurable. I think it is the only thing that has saved my fish a couple of times.

your treating the symptom, not the problem :wink:

I did blast my rock last weekend with the water change....with my power heads. I also bought a new powerhead today. The water looks tooooo turbulent to me. My corals seem to like it, but my fish seem terrified. I thought that might help keep that stuff circulating.

Course sediment may be trapping detritus...Hummm....would a sand filter type fish help? Other than me having toooo many fish already...I was afraid he might eat all of my little live critters I have worked so hard to raise in my sand bed.

if you're referring to a 'fluidized bed filter'-no.if you're referring to a sand bed-yes.

The guy at the Pet Shop also mentioned that I might try to clean the blue plastic in my Bak Pak by swishing it around in a bucket of salt water. It seems this would wash all of the critters out of it as well.... Maybe not...

remove the media (blue plastic)completely-it is helping to produce nitrates :wink:

Thanks again for all of your input.

fwiw-sounds like you have alot of rock in there-is the structure nice and open?or do you have alot of rock surfaces blocked by other rock?

you don't need an 'motorboat' level of circulation-if there's so much current that the fish are having trouble-it may be too much-what you're looking for is good steady flow(as a guide-a piece of flake food should travel between one to three inches/sec in the slowest flow areas of the tank)

i'd strongly suggest bringing the naso back to the lfs, waiting a while -make the changes to your setup first,then sit back for a month-learn as much as you can about water chemistry and corals-then then try 'em out-starting with some of the easier ones, as you get your feet wet.

hth
good luck

 

[logicalreef]

Greetings all - While I havent used Prime in ages, I seem to remember that it warns against giving a very high false nitrate reading. Something akin to using Ammo lock and still getting high ammonia readings. I may be wrong, but a little voice in my head says your nitrates may be high...but not as high as the test is saying.

FWIW, Bryan

 

[tanzy]

Got this from the Seachem website,

Prime™ is a complete conditioner for both marine and freshwater use that removes chlorine, chloramine, and detoxifies ammonia and nitrite. It also provides essential ions and stimulates natural slime coat. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concenration levels. Prime™ also enhances nitrate removal. It should be the first choice conditioner when setting up a new tank, adding, or changing water. No other product is required to make water safe, even in high chloramine situations. Unlike competing products, Prime™ does not cause a pH drop or over-activate skimmers. A 100 mL bottle treats over 1,000 gallons, much more than competing products. Marine and freshwater.

I use Prime too, but only to dechlorinate tap water. Never used it for nitrates before and I don't think it does anything about the nitrate.