Can standard Oceanic 1" drains handle Ampmaster?

[liquid]

I was thinking the same thing Nathan. Another option would be a Sequence pump instead of an Iwaki as they're pretty energy efficient. Gorman Rupp also makes a good external pump. Ampmasters really aren't designed to be used for a return pump as they're not pressure rated pumps whereas Iwaki's, Gorman Rupp's, and Sequence pumps (depending on the model) are.

btw...Nathan, did you get my email?

Shane

 

[Anonymous]

I think you guys are on to something, particularly since I actually measured (duh!) and found that the rise was 8' and the horizontal run 14 feet, with probably 4 bends.

The stock tank I use will probably be like the one our horses drink out of- roughly 5x3 feet so it should have no problem with the flow.

I would like to use the return lines holes in the bottom of the overflow to feed a closed loop. I think they are 3/4 inch- and even if joined together would constitute a constricted intake for an ampmaster. Oh wait- I think they can handle 1" at a reduced flow so maybe that is ok. But I still am not sure if accessing those drains would send a lot of bubbles into the closed loop (from the overflow baffles etc)...

 

[sawcjack00]

As stated before, the Ampmaster handles head pressure very poorly. I have a basement sump, and actually just use a Mag24 as the return through a 1" Sea Swirl. It gives me about 1000GPH. I also run a closed loop and have a couple of SWR external PH's on the tank. I tried the Ampmaster 3000, but it did not give good flow with all of the head pressure. It will now be used in a closed loop on my new 450 setup. You will definitely want a pressure rated pump if you want close to 2000GPH at the distance you've measured. I think the suggestions above are good ones. Good luck.

 

[npaden]

sawjack,

Just to clarify the ampmaster would deliver 2,000 gph in the situation Dan originally described. Adding a few more horizontal feet and another foot of static head might drop it to 1,800 gph or so but if plumbed properly it would still deliver more water than the overflows could handle unless he wanted to restrict the pump with a gate or ball valve. The key is designing your plumbing correctly. I had a Mag12 that was only delivering 350 gph, but it wasn't that the Mag12 can't handle the pressure it was because I was trying to cram it though a 1/2" line at one point in my plumbing setup. I switched most of the plumbing out to 1 1/4" and my 1" overflow couldn't handle the flow. The plumbing design can have a HUGE impact on the pumps final flow rate.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[sawcjack00]

Not to argue with you Nathan, but your calculation was based on 7' verticle rise, 12 foot horizontal run, and 1 90 degree bend. He stated that it is actually 8', 14' and 4 bends. In a best case scenario using those numbers and assuming the bends are 45 degrees not 90 degrees, this comes out to 15.03 feet of head pressure using the RC calculator. The Ampmaster graph says that this would result in a flow rate of approximately 600 GPH. As I said, I would never recomend the Ampmaster 3000 for a basement return pump based on both experience, and numbers.

 

[liquid]

sawcjack00,

What flow rate did you input into the RC calculator? 3000 gph I'm guessing, correct? The flow rate in GPH on the RC calculator that the user is to input for their system is the flow rate that's coming OUT of the pipe into the display tank and not the flow rate of the pump @ 1' head. RC's calculator is *very* vague on this and gives very bad data if the user believes that the flow rate to input is the pump's flow rate @ 1' head. As Nathan explained before, you have to initially *guess* at what your subsequent flow rate will be into your tank from the sump and then enter this initial guess into RC's calculator and then keep changing your flow rate until the GPH and FT Head intersect on the pump curve. When these values intersect, then you have your best calculation of what the flow rate and head will be using that specific pump.

If you're using 3000 gph as your flow rate, the calcuations will use this number to figure out a frictinal head loss due to the piping thereby compounding the error. If your 600 gph is indeed the flow rate for the system, then the system should be using 600 gph and not 3000 gph to calculate the frictional head loss for the piping. This error is not trivial either according to the equations.

I ran the ##'s per my above comments and come out with:

Plumbing Losses
Friction head (ft) 1.1581
Minor Loss (ft) 1.4604
Static Head 8.0000
Total Dynamic Head (ft) 10.6185

System Results
Flow Rate (GPM) 30.73
System Flow Rate (GPH) 1844
Velocity at output (ft/sec) 4.84

I'm guessing Nathan will come out pretty close to me.

hth

Shane

 

[M.E.Milz]

For the sake of comparison, I was running a pair of Iwaki 40XLRT return pimps on an Ocenaic 200 with 2x 1" drains. I do not know what the flow rate was, but the drains could not handle the full output from the pair of Iwaki pumps. FWIW, the return lines from each of the Iwaki pumps included 5.5' vertical head and 4-5' of horizontal run, with 1 90 degree bend.

I also reached the same conclusion about using an Ampmaster 3000 as a return pump for my new tank. It is not designed to handle very much backpressure. That is why I opted for a Dolphin 4500. This is a high rpm pump that is much better suited as a return pump. I hope to get at least 2400 gph out of this pump eventhough I will have 6' of vertical head and will be splitting the single 1.5" return line into 8x separate 0.75" return lines, each with a 90 degree bend. I will have 2x 1.5" drain bulkheads to handle the flow to the sump.

By the way, I still plan to use the Iwaki pumps in the new set-up, but on separate closed loops, each connected to a 1" Sea Swirl and a 1.5" intake bulkhead.

 

[sawcjack00]

Liquid, you are correct I entered 3000 GPH. If I enter 2000 GPH, I come out with 11.12 feet of head pressure which is around 1800 GPH, so I stand corrected . This is still under the 2000 GPH level that he wanted to get, also if those 4 bends are 90 degrees, that lowers the out put to around 1500 GPH. It should still work. In my experimenting with the Ampmaster, I also found that at high head pressure the AM3000 drew more than 2 amps which is double what most people are calculating for electricity usage (which is the main benefit of this pump). Under the exact same circumstance, (return pump from my basement) the Ampmaster used near 250 Watts while the Mag24 used 254 watts and pumped more water. As always YMMV and this is simply my own experience.

 

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

Actually, the higher the head pressure or "load" on the pump, the lower the amperage draw will be. An ampmaster will draw its maximum power consumption with 0 feet of headpressure through 1.5 inch piping.

 

[npaden]

Heh,

Some pretty intense stuff to answer a simple question from Dan!

Sawjack,
I didn't rerun the numbers on RC's head loss calculator to get my 1,800 gph number - I just guessed. Looks like Shane has run the numbers for us and got pretty close to my guess though!

Everyone,
I just want to clarify my position again. I actually recommended earlier than Dan might want to use a different pump for his return and the ampmaster as a recirculation pump. This is actually more from dependability issues than anything else. The seals and springs on their older models are prone to leaks and instances of not restarting after being turned off or after a power outage without assistance. They have sent out new springs and seals and the new models are supposed to have them as well, but we will have to wait and see on the dependability issue.

However, I also wanted to clarify that if it is plumbed correctly the ampmaster could deliver more flow than the 1" Oceanic drains would be able to handle and to point out that your plumbing design is as important if not more important than the pump you select.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[Anonymous]

For sure! Technically speaking, the power I was planning on using is "not too much" and the amount of flow required will be "pretty good", and the head pressure will be "kinda high".

When I run my equations on that I get Sequence or Rupp-gorman (or is it Gorman-rupp?) pump, 1.5 drains regardless of what the guy at Oceanic said, and a closed loop design that does not require additional drilling.

Anyone care to comment on R&Bs comment above? At first it sounded wrong, but I thought about it- now I'm not so sure...

 

[npaden]

I've never put a volt meter on an ampmaster to verify the manufacturer's specifications, but per the techincal information on their site the more head pressure the less electrical draw.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[rikacarl]

hey dan.

I was trying to decide on the exact same thing with my custom 120 tank from them. I went with two 1" holes in mine. I am using an Iwaki MD-30RXT return pump. I am still waiting for the tank, it is stuck in transit two hours drive away. I just got done moving and I can't wait to see it !!!

I figured I will never use enough flow to require the 1 1/2 size. I have several in tank powerheads that run on a wavemaker so I don't worry to much about total flow with the main pump.

-carl

 

[sawcjack00]

R&B is going by the chart on the website which I believe to be a misprint. I am going by experience with a wattage meter. The higher the head pressure, the more energy it uses. With the pressure of running it through a beckett skimmer the AM3K draws over 2 amps.

 

[SPC]

Posted by sawjack00:
R&B is going by the chart on the website which I believe to be a misprint. I am going by experience with a wattage meter. The higher the head pressure, the more energy it uses. With the pressure of running it through a beckett skimmer the AM3K draws over 2 amps

-I agree, if this is not the case then I need to take a physics class again. :wink:
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Steve- yeah, it seems like the higher you pump the more power it should use- but remember its also pumping less water at the higher head...