My C-Balance bottle claims it "replenishes calcium and alkalinity .............and acheives a balanced ionic residual with the composition of natural sea water." I prefer to keep my alk. well above 3.0 meq.l. Can I adjust the dosing amounts of one par to meet my needs?
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C-Balance query
- Thread starter Scott Clendenin
- Start date
randy holmes-farley
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- Arlington, MA
You may need a one time correction, but you should not normally need anything except the amounts provided by the two part additives (B-ionic, C-balance, etc.). There just is no large export mechanism that requires more of one than the other (yes, there are some small ones, but they only show up over substantial time periods).
So if you are talking about raising either calcium or alkalinity and not the other, that's ok once in a great while. But if you percieve an ongoing need for one and not as much for the other, something is wrong (such as a test kit error).
So if you are talking about raising either calcium or alkalinity and not the other, that's ok once in a great while. But if you percieve an ongoing need for one and not as much for the other, something is wrong (such as a test kit error).
I guess my pointand or question is that all the info I have on seawater claims it to have an alk. anywhere from 1.7 meq.-2.8meq. My SPS seem to fair better in a 3.2-4.0 range.I may have some additional problem causing this, but soon after C-Balance addition (24hours) My alk. falls short of the 3.0 mark. My thought was the concentration of each component may be designed as to set alk. and calcium levels to that of seawater.These gallon jugs I've puchased come concentrated and the amounts in each look anything but exact. Would this ever have a "swing result" on either property?
Scott
Scott
randy holmes-farley
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- Arlington, MA
No, the two part additives like C-Balance do not target any particular level. If you need more, you have to add more, and if you need less, you add less.
Alkalinity drops as organisms deposit calcium carbonate (and for a few other, more minor, reasons). You may simply need to add more of the additives if you want a higher concentration in the tank.
Depending on what your calcium level currently is, you may need more of both, or just more of the alkalinity portion in a one time correction.
Alkalinity drops as organisms deposit calcium carbonate (and for a few other, more minor, reasons). You may simply need to add more of the additives if you want a higher concentration in the tank.
Depending on what your calcium level currently is, you may need more of both, or just more of the alkalinity portion in a one time correction.
Scott,
I am concerned about your comment that,
"These gallon jugs I've puchased come concentrated and the amounts in each look anything but exact. Would this ever have a "swing result" on either property?"
What do you mean about not being exact? I hope you realize that you need to add water to the jugs to bring them to normal concentration. They are formulated to be exactly balanced when you add water to the same level in each jug. The alkalinity component dissolves properly only when diluted to normal concentration.
I agree with Randy that you need to add more of both parts if you want to raise your alkalinity higher. If the alkalinity is dropping rapidly, then it is being depleted by some effect, whether it be precipitation by excess calcium in the aquarium, deposition by rapidly growing corals, or neutralization of acid. Check the calcium level. Did you add calcium chloride for a while before you started adding C-Balance? If the calcium level is too high, a water change to bring it back down would be the quickest fix. Thereafter C-Balance will adjust it easily where you want it.
Sincerely,
Julian Sprung, Vice President
Two Little Fishies, Inc.
I am concerned about your comment that,
"These gallon jugs I've puchased come concentrated and the amounts in each look anything but exact. Would this ever have a "swing result" on either property?"
What do you mean about not being exact? I hope you realize that you need to add water to the jugs to bring them to normal concentration. They are formulated to be exactly balanced when you add water to the same level in each jug. The alkalinity component dissolves properly only when diluted to normal concentration.
I agree with Randy that you need to add more of both parts if you want to raise your alkalinity higher. If the alkalinity is dropping rapidly, then it is being depleted by some effect, whether it be precipitation by excess calcium in the aquarium, deposition by rapidly growing corals, or neutralization of acid. Check the calcium level. Did you add calcium chloride for a while before you started adding C-Balance? If the calcium level is too high, a water change to bring it back down would be the quickest fix. Thereafter C-Balance will adjust it easily where you want it.
Sincerely,
Julian Sprung, Vice President
Two Little Fishies, Inc.
Interesting.. I see people every day that have problems keeping the alk up when the calcium is ok using the 2 parts.. it's actually quite common for the alk to be depleted faster than the calcium from these supplements. I'm not a chemist, and I can't tell you WHY (maybe you can tell me) but it is a very common occurance. Most of them end up adding a little buffer here and there rather than adding more of the alk part. These tanks all have high coralline growth in common, but are various types of reefs as far as animals kept.
Julian Sprung,
Yes the solutions were diluted to the specified gallon amount with RODI water.
Let me explain my comment on the exactness of each concentrate. A friend and I split billing on a large purchase online. Upon receiving each of our containers of C-Balance, My Two parts and his two sets of two part solution, we noticed the amounts in each, comparitively, were not exact. There was no solids in the concentrate "B" this time as there was the previous time I purchased this product (this was explained normal on the label though even raising its temp to 80f never fully redisolved it.Oh, well-off subject).
As for my cal. level It usually peaks in my sys. at 425 ppm and I never let it fall below 350 ppm. If at any time it exceeded these levels I promptly checked alk. finding it worryingly low. If lower than 350ppm I generally do a water change to bring it back up. I've changed alot of water lately to see if I had a buildup of some kind but results using this "two part" stay the same.
The corals I house are reefbuilders, except some Xenia, and most are of the "SPS" variety.My system is small, 46gal. no sump. I skim and use LR/LS.
Jeremy's post sounds similiar to my reefkeeping. I also use a buffer regularly (Kent DkH builder also Kent Superbuffer-Same thing?).
Thank you for responding, I use some of your products and enjoy your writings. I'm sure with you and Randy's input I'll have a better understanding of this.
Scott
Yes the solutions were diluted to the specified gallon amount with RODI water.
Let me explain my comment on the exactness of each concentrate. A friend and I split billing on a large purchase online. Upon receiving each of our containers of C-Balance, My Two parts and his two sets of two part solution, we noticed the amounts in each, comparitively, were not exact. There was no solids in the concentrate "B" this time as there was the previous time I purchased this product (this was explained normal on the label though even raising its temp to 80f never fully redisolved it.Oh, well-off subject).
As for my cal. level It usually peaks in my sys. at 425 ppm and I never let it fall below 350 ppm. If at any time it exceeded these levels I promptly checked alk. finding it worryingly low. If lower than 350ppm I generally do a water change to bring it back up. I've changed alot of water lately to see if I had a buildup of some kind but results using this "two part" stay the same.
The corals I house are reefbuilders, except some Xenia, and most are of the "SPS" variety.My system is small, 46gal. no sump. I skim and use LR/LS.
Jeremy's post sounds similiar to my reefkeeping. I also use a buffer regularly (Kent DkH builder also Kent Superbuffer-Same thing?).
Thank you for responding, I use some of your products and enjoy your writings. I'm sure with you and Randy's input I'll have a better understanding of this.
Scott
randy holmes-farley
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- Arlington, MA
Jeremy:
Man does that irritate me. I long post lost to cyberspace with a new request to log in.....
OK, I'll try again.
I see people every day that have problems keeping the alk up when the calcium is ok using the 2 parts.. it's actually quite common for the alk to be depleted faster than the calcium from these supplements.
True, but it is mostly mathematical illusion.
If you start with 420 ppm calcium and 4 meq/L alkalinity, and then let your favorite coral calcify to reduce the alkalinity to 3 meq/L, how low do you suppose the calcium will go?
It actually will only drop to 400 ppm, which is within the noise of most test kits. Many reefers seeing that say 'Whoa, my alkalinity dropped by 25%, but clacium hardly changed. I'd better add buffer...."
Another illusory reason for alkalinity declines is that most reefkeepers strive to keep calcium at about natural levels (say, 400 ppm or so) but want to push alkalinity far above natural levels (say, 4 meq/L instead of 2.5 meq/L). Since at least some of the salt mixes better approximate the natural alk levels than the elevated alk levels, any water changes will have the appearance of a decline in alkalinity.
There are two potentially significant reasons for alkalinity to decline independent of calcium.
One is the nitrogen cycle. The conversion of ammonia to nitrate creates substantial acid that reduces alkalinity. If you remove that nitrate with water changes, over time you will notice the effect on alkalinity. If, however, the nitrate is used as a nutrient by organsims (like algae) or is converted to N2 in a sand bed, you get that alkalinity back.
A second true alkalinity drop comes when magnesium and strontium are incorporated in to growing crystals of CaCO3. In this case, carbonate is used, reducing alkalinity, but calcium is unchanged.
I'll point out, however, that many tanks run for years on perfectly balanced limewater and do not show alk/calcium imbalances of significance.
Man does that irritate me. I long post lost to cyberspace with a new request to log in.....
OK, I'll try again.
I see people every day that have problems keeping the alk up when the calcium is ok using the 2 parts.. it's actually quite common for the alk to be depleted faster than the calcium from these supplements.
True, but it is mostly mathematical illusion.
If you start with 420 ppm calcium and 4 meq/L alkalinity, and then let your favorite coral calcify to reduce the alkalinity to 3 meq/L, how low do you suppose the calcium will go?
It actually will only drop to 400 ppm, which is within the noise of most test kits. Many reefers seeing that say 'Whoa, my alkalinity dropped by 25%, but clacium hardly changed. I'd better add buffer...."
Another illusory reason for alkalinity declines is that most reefkeepers strive to keep calcium at about natural levels (say, 400 ppm or so) but want to push alkalinity far above natural levels (say, 4 meq/L instead of 2.5 meq/L). Since at least some of the salt mixes better approximate the natural alk levels than the elevated alk levels, any water changes will have the appearance of a decline in alkalinity.
There are two potentially significant reasons for alkalinity to decline independent of calcium.
One is the nitrogen cycle. The conversion of ammonia to nitrate creates substantial acid that reduces alkalinity. If you remove that nitrate with water changes, over time you will notice the effect on alkalinity. If, however, the nitrate is used as a nutrient by organsims (like algae) or is converted to N2 in a sand bed, you get that alkalinity back.
A second true alkalinity drop comes when magnesium and strontium are incorporated in to growing crystals of CaCO3. In this case, carbonate is used, reducing alkalinity, but calcium is unchanged.
I'll point out, however, that many tanks run for years on perfectly balanced limewater and do not show alk/calcium imbalances of significance.
randy holmes-farley
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- Arlington, MA
Jeremy:
Two other comments:
1. I do not claim that all two part additive systems are made correctly. Some may be short on alkalinity, I just don't know.
2. ESV, the maker of B-ionnic apparently tries to counter the tendency to have alkalinity drop in some systems by loading MORE alkalinity into the product than calcium (at least that is what they claim).
http://www.esvco.com/prod6.htm
They write:
Component #1 - Carbonate Alkalinity: 2800 meq/liter (7840 dKH). 1 ml per gallon of aquarium water will raise alkalinity by 0.74 meq/liter (2.07 dKH).
Component #2 - Calcium Concentration: 54,000 ppm calcium ion. 1 ml per gallon of aquarium water will raise calcium concentration by 16ppm.
For perfect formation of CaCO3, calcium ought to drop by 1 meq/L (40 ppm) for every two meq/L drop in alkalinity.
So the B-ionic actually claims to have 4% more alkalinity than calcium being delivered.
Two other comments:
1. I do not claim that all two part additive systems are made correctly. Some may be short on alkalinity, I just don't know.
2. ESV, the maker of B-ionnic apparently tries to counter the tendency to have alkalinity drop in some systems by loading MORE alkalinity into the product than calcium (at least that is what they claim).
http://www.esvco.com/prod6.htm
They write:
Component #1 - Carbonate Alkalinity: 2800 meq/liter (7840 dKH). 1 ml per gallon of aquarium water will raise alkalinity by 0.74 meq/liter (2.07 dKH).
Component #2 - Calcium Concentration: 54,000 ppm calcium ion. 1 ml per gallon of aquarium water will raise calcium concentration by 16ppm.
For perfect formation of CaCO3, calcium ought to drop by 1 meq/L (40 ppm) for every two meq/L drop in alkalinity.
So the B-ionic actually claims to have 4% more alkalinity than calcium being delivered.
randy holmes-farley
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- Arlington, MA
What I"m seeing chronically isn't a ca 400+ alk 4.0 and dropping, it's more like alk of 6 dkh or ~2.15 meq/l and even lower if they don't buffer.
I can't really diagnose the situation without more details, but the idea of the mathematical difference stands at any alkalinity. Calcium at 420 ppm and alkalinity at 2 meq/L will drop to calcium at 400 ppm and alkalinity at 1 meq/l with some calcification by corals.
I can't really diagnose the situation without more details, but the idea of the mathematical difference stands at any alkalinity. Calcium at 420 ppm and alkalinity at 2 meq/L will drop to calcium at 400 ppm and alkalinity at 1 meq/l with some calcification by corals.
Randy Holmes-Farley,
What do you believe to be the ideal alk. level for a reef tank?
As it is, I only dose with marine buffer every couple of weeks, at the most. My alk. runs around the 12 dKH level most of the time or (11-12).
My calcium levels are maintained in the 400-425 range using Tropic Marin. I add 2-4 scoops usually twice per week. Sometimes 3 times per week is required. Does this sound about right for a 55 gallon?
Thanks, Keith
What do you believe to be the ideal alk. level for a reef tank?
As it is, I only dose with marine buffer every couple of weeks, at the most. My alk. runs around the 12 dKH level most of the time or (11-12).
My calcium levels are maintained in the 400-425 range using Tropic Marin. I add 2-4 scoops usually twice per week. Sometimes 3 times per week is required. Does this sound about right for a 55 gallon?
Thanks, Keith
randy holmes-farley
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- Arlington, MA
I personally advise people to target 2.5 - 4 meq/L (7-11 dKH) for alkalinity, and about 410 ppm for calcium.
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