Yellow Tang Vs. Sailfin: How much bullying is too much?

[Reefguide]

Your avoiding the question...

 

[SPC]

Posted by Reefguide:

Do you think any anyone would want to live in a studio apartment or a luxery 7000sq foot home?

Well I don't know about any anyone :wink: but I sure wouldn't want to live in a 7000 sq ft house. I have trouble enough keeping my 1800 sq ft house clean 8O .

Do you think any animal would like to live in a 29g or an open ocean?

-Uh, I think that some animals would be perfectly happy in a 29. If their territory in the wild is about the size of a 29 and the water conditions, food etc are the same, then I think they would be fine. There are small gobies and blennies that stay within a couple foot area their entire life. In fact I have some blennies in my 180 that stay inside a hole in the rock and only venture out 2 inches to capture food that floats by.Clowns are another good example of a fish that lives in a small area as well as jawfish and probably many others I am not thinking of. So yes, I would say some fish would be just as happy in a 29 as they would in the ocean, but tangs are not one of them.
Steve

 

[Reefguide]

Uh, I think that some animals would be perfectly happy in a 29. If their territory in the wild is about the size of a 29 and the water conditions, food etc are the same, then I think they would be fine.

No, sorry, I just don't agree.

 

[Anonymous]

What question am I avoiding Reefguide? Please enlighten me.

While you are at it, you might answer my earlier request for a source that agrees with your position.

 

[tdwyatt]

No, sorry, I just don't agree.

You apply human standards to creatures that have a completely different view of what is their "want" vs. their "need". Survival is the goal of such creatures until they satisfy their basic food needs. Their next level of need is to reproduce if they have adequate nutrition and potential mates (or just divide if they don't need mates). Based on their needs for acquisition of adequate nutrition and acquiring potential mates, territory may be established. It is highly unlikely that such creatures have "wants" for the wide open sea, and may even find lower stress and higher security in smaller, less open home environments. Some creatures have very small territories based on their nutritional needs, some have much larger needs, but regardless, reducing their environmental volume to less than their specie minumum induces stress and may lead to disease. What exists beyond their territory is of little interest to most fishes unless it applies to the acquisition or defense of the primary needs for these organisms. This makes the "7000 sq ft apartment" analogy superfluous, as maintaining such a large territory is wasteful of the acquired nutrition. Darwinian selection has weeded out those creatures that waste energy without significant gain. Very few lower vertebrates are capable of sustaining Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs, you have anthropomorphized creatures that do not have that capability.

 

[Reefguide]

I'm going to drop the topic. I not at all interested in agruging anymore about this. Preety soon someone is gonna piss someone off and I don't think it's worth it. Maybe you guys are right, whatever the case, I'm done talking about it.

 

[naesco]

Reefguide
Thank you for saying we may be right. I am happy we got you thinking about it.

 

[Minh Nguyen]

Uh, I think that some animals would be perfectly happy in a 29. If their territory in the wild is about the size of a 29 and the water conditions, food etc are the same, then I think they would be fine.

No, sorry, I just don't agree.

Why don't you agree. I have three ocelaris clowns that NEVER stray more that .5 feet from their anemone. Except for bebore I put the anemone in the tank. I have a 8 foot tank. Certainly for my clowns, this is not needed.
They will be perfectly happy in a small tank with their anemone.
Please give me reason why you think the clowns need a bigger tank, and will be happier there?
BTW, my clown is breeding, as are several of my other fishes in my tank.

Minh

 

[Reefguide]

Minh,

Did you miss my post??

I'm going to drop the topic. I not at all interested in agruging anymore about this. Preety soon someone is gonna piss someone off and I don't think it's worth it. Maybe you guys are right, whatever the case, I'm done talking about it.

Maybe you lack basic comprehension skills or your one of these guys thats keeps getting in people faces after they have said that they refuse to argue further. I'm done talking about it.

 

[Anonymous]

LOL

Reefguide, the fact that you haven't any support for your position does not mean others cannot continue to support theirs.

Brian

BTW, this is about the 3rd time you have posted after you were "done". Are you really done this time? LOL

Brian

 

[aquarist=broke]

Uh, I think that some animals would be perfectly happy in a 29. If their territory in the wild is about the size of a 29 and the water conditions, food etc are the same, then I think they would be fine.

you don't see how the fish you keep suffer

my view is that we should attempt to provide the optimum environment for our fish, not the minimum that we can get away with.

Perhaps we all need a refresher in the "ENVIRONMENT" that we provide our inhabitants.

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm ... efault.asp

we need to frown on the whole aquarium hobbie as a whole.
So why not just take a stand against the aquarium trade

I have posted similar to the above statements by Reefguide, when somebody's mandarin fish was eaten by an anemone.

If we really want animals to stop being killed or whatever, then maybe we should just stop this all together.

 

[SPC]

aquariust=broke posted:

Perhaps we all need a refresher in the "ENVIRONMENT" that we provide our inhabitants.

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm ... efault.asp

-And your point is?

reefguide wrote:
we need to frown on the whole aquarium hobbie as a whole.
So why not just take a stand against the aquarium trade


I have posted similar to the above statements by Reefguide, when somebody's mandarin fish was eaten by an anemone.

aquarist=broke wrote:
If we really want animals to stop being killed or whatever, then maybe we should just stop this all together.

-You sure did, would you care to discuss your statement further or were you just blowing off some steam?
Steve

 

[aquarist=broke]

-And your point is?

The point was that everyone is so concerned about providing the best environment for the animals we keep, but if you even looked at the data, you would see that unless you have something like a 50X50 foot net out in the ocean that you "maintain", then you aren't providing the optimal environment.

reefguide wrote:
we need to frown on the whole aquarium hobbie as a whole.
So why not just take a stand against the aquarium trade


I have posted similar to the above statements by Reefguide, when somebody's mandarin fish was eaten by an anemone.

aquarist=broke wrote:
If we really want animals to stop being killed or whatever, then maybe we should just stop this all together.

-You sure did, would you care to discuss your statement further or were you just blowing off some steam?
Steve[/quote]

Here's the whole quote to clarify any misunderstanding.

I have only been coming here for a few months, and with only 30 or so odd posts I tend not to answer these really deep issues, but I was telling my co-workers about this issue and they said I should add to it. It's just that alot of people hate when something in a tank dies because of a "lame" aquarist's idea. Be it trial and error(which I think we are all guilty of somehow), or experience we have developed from years, we are the reason people are trying to have aquariums. Somebody had to use trial and error for any of the things we do and don't do in this hobby. If we really want animals to stop being killed or whatever, then maybe we should just stop this all together. I really don't want to stop because I have been successful thus far, however if I infrequently had animals die because of my care, or lack thereof, then I would definately QUIT as much as I would hate to......

my 2 cents.....

I really don't feel superior to you Steve, I respect your {squats}. I just think that if we want to accuse somebody of not providing for their animals, we should look first at ourselves. Don't you think?

 

[Minh Nguyen]

Minh,

Did you miss my post??

I'm going to drop the topic. I not at all interested in agruging anymore about this. Preety soon someone is gonna piss someone off and I don't think it's worth it. Maybe you guys are right, whatever the case, I'm done talking about it.

Maybe you lack basic comprehension skills or your one of these guys thats keeps getting in people faces after they have said that they refuse to argue further. I'm done talking about it.

Perfect example of someone taking pot shots at people, then hide behind a rock and yell bloody murder.:roll:

Minh

 

[Reefguide]

[YELLS] BLOODY MURDER !!

 

[SPC]

Posted by aquariust=broke:

The point was that everyone is so concerned about providing the best environment for the animals we keep, but if you even looked at the data, you would see that unless you have something like a 50X50 foot net out in the ocean that you "maintain", then you aren't providing the optimal environment.

-I did look at the data but I am afraid it dosen't mean much to me at this point. There are people on this board and others who have been using these salts for many years that have perfectly healthy animals. If this was a real concern then our animals would be dying from this. Tangs in a 29 gallon tank die each day and there is a reason for this.

I really don't feel superior to you Steve, I respect your {squats}. I just think that if we want to accuse somebody of not providing for their animals, we should look first at ourselves. Don't you think?

-I don't feel superior to you either aquariust, you could have one post and still make a valid point.
OK, I am looking at myself and I don't have a tang in a 29 gallon tank, no problem here that I can see.
Steve

 

[aquarist=broke]

Additionally, my view is that we should attempt to provide the optimum environment for our fish, not the minimum that we can get away with.

Just because our fish aren't dying, doesn't mean that we are providing the optimal environment for our fish. I think it is difficult to maintain an aquarium in the "optimal" environment at all times, and when compared to seawater, it seems like the salt we use provides the minimum.

if this was a real concern then our animals would be dying from this. Tangs in a 29 gallon tank die each day and there is a reason for this.

Animals in any gallon tank die each day, more than the almighty Tang. A search on this forum for death or dying shows, many people lose fish from doing something crazy(sometimes not), stupid, or nothing at all, and there are reasons for that. It seems useless to emphasize on one type of fish(tang) or another when all fish are equal(except in price ). Some people put different animals(corals, fish, etc..) that don't belong together, don't come from the same places, and are even "difficult" to raise into their tank and then come here and BASH somebody that says, "Oops, I killed my fish." My above statement about looking at ourselves was directed to everybody, not a personal attack at you Mr. SPC. 8)

 

[Anonymous]

Aquarist=broke

Man, I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are getting at. Did you have a point? I have a 550 gallon tank with a hepatus tang and some wrasses, anthias, blue spot jawfish, pair of ocellaris, and some cleaner gobies, so when it comes to stocking decisions I have no problem with "looking at ourselves".

I have seen 75 gallon tanks with more fish than I have, and I have NEVER had a fish die of disease in 4 years of keeping fish. Check out some of the current "I bought a powder blue tang and now it has ich" and you will see why I get so irritated at people for decisions they make, REGARDLESS of the ample evidence provided to them of the impact stocking levels have on frequency of parasitic infections and disease.

Brian

 

[Anonymous]

aquarist=broke

You posted just as I did, so let me respond further.

Tangs aren't the "only" fish that many wish to protect from uninformed stocking decisions. Mandarins, moorish idols, pipefish, seahorses, and cleaner wrasses are just a few fish that are "hot topics" when someone buys them, because the environment necessary to keep them alive is so critical. The environment for tangs is a little different from these other fish because more often than not it relates to tank size, since MOST aquarists don't have the tank size adequate to house tangs, yet tangs are one of the most commonly available species.

I really don't understand your seeming gripe that this thread is about protecting the almighty tang...

well....gee...the thread was started to ask about tangs, so it seems LOGICAL to me that they would be discussed.

Brian

 

[aquarist=broke]

Okay, from this discussion, I have learned:
1. Tangs require a larger amount of swimming space to be happy. I can understand that because I had a Comet goldfish once, and I tell you what, that thing grew and grew. The larger the tank the larger it got. I would love to see a tang swimming freely in a 550.(pictures don't do any justice)
2. Tangs are hard to keep healthy in a smaller tank. I agree with the Tang police that nothing smaller than 100gal. for a tang. That's mostly because I learned first off when I came here. Anybody posting about having a Tang in a small tank was "scolded" for not studying up.
3. Larger aquariums provide the Optimal environment for tangs. I would bet that the people that have small tanks with tangs are oblivious to the work, research, time, science, and ingenuity required to keep fish. I despise those people just like you Brian, but I would be a hypocrite to say that I was never oblivious at one point.
I am here to learn, and share anything that will keep me or anybody smarter than me from doing something stupid. (ex. keeping 20 fish in a 29gal.)

Check out some of the current "I bought a powder blue tang and now it has ich" and you will see why I get so irritated at people for decisions they make, REGARDLESS of the ample evidence provided to them of the impact stocking levels have on frequency of parasitic infections and disease.

I can imagine how many loony people never even come to places like these to learn beforehand what they're getting into. I think those loonies are the ones that come here after their pretty yellow fish is skinny and swimming in cartwheels.