My semi-random rant for the month...

[K77]

SPC - It is obvious that the issue between us two is one of semantics. We both agree that conservationist is someone who helps a cause. However, I think that to deserve this title there is a moral conotation. For me,being a conservationist isn't only helping a cause, but doing it for the right reasons.

Have we not gone to college here people? Have we decided to skip economics 101 here?

Obviously you haven't. Either that, or I decided to skip the class where the professor said "All of the consumers are conservationist, we are in this class to save the world, not to make money!" Maybe you just decided to skip ecology 101?

Sadly, I might find it interesting to address some of your arguments if you could refrain the venom. I don't see the point in answering anything insulting though. But to clarify, I never said a consumer was a conservationist, but the other way around. I implied that a consumer has a responsibility to be a conservationist and that if they heed that responsibility then they are be the nature of being a conscientious consumer also a conservationist, and to ignore that is destructive, especially for reef hobbyists.

I really don't find that insults add anything to this conversation though, and I am pretty dissappointed in turn its taken considering that everyone a couple of days showed nothing but complete respect for each other despite the heated topic here. I have been particularly impressed with everyone's general behaviour up until the last couple days, and I am rather sad that I don't feel this to be a worthwhile conversation anymore given the venom that has been passed the last couple posts. I prefer not to carry on a conversation like this anymore, but I appreciate everyone's opinions and what they've had to say up until now. Good topic folks! Keep it up!

 

[Anonymous]

I have been particularly impressed with everyone's general behaviour up until the last couple days, and I am rather sad that I don't feel this to be a worthwhile conversation anymore given the venom that has been passed the last couple posts. I prefer not to carry on a conversation like this anymore, but I appreciate everyone's opinions and what they've had to say up until now. Good topic folks! Keep it up!

I think you may be taking banter for insults - it happens often in written discussions. I have felt no venom, no insults, just people saying what they think and asking questions.
A side note - I find it disconcerting when people write something like 'I am not going to post on this topic anymore' after they have made points against other people. I find it to be like being hung up on while on the phone, which feels terrible.

RR

 

[Anonymous]

I implied that a consumer has a responsibility to be a conservationist and that if they heed that responsibility then they are be the nature of being a conscientious consumer also a conservationist, and to ignore that is destructive, especially for reef hobbyists.

I further understand your stance now. I guess the big difference would be the conscientious consumer and the non-conscientious one. Unfortunately, that is a huge difference and a category most consumers do not fall into, most are simply price conscientious consumers. :roll:

 

[flameangel1]

Just a note,
Most of us reading and posting to this thread, seem to be on the same wave length. Just using the semantics of certain words differently.
The written word can be misconstrued even with the emoticons attached, unfortunately. And the very passion that fuels this topic, leads to sometimes emotional reactions to the semantics.

I understand a lot of you better now, (thank you for that) and have a broader understanding of the other side of the consumers/customers thinking.
Only wish there were a lot more of you out there !!

Steve,
You do keep the ball rolling with your good questions.

 

[dizzy]

KISS (Keep it simple stupid) I always thought that conservation meant making things last. It doesn't mean that you can't consume, it just means that you must consume wisely. I'm really glad that people like Bruce Bunting (WWF) and Paul Holthus(MAC) have shown a great deal of common sense in understanding the meaning of sustainability.

Consider the following: You buy a tank raised clown from the aquaculture place in Florida because you want to save the reef. The wild caught clown that you might have bought instead, the one that was captured by a poor Indonesian fisherman, goes unpurchased. You defame the practice of taking stuff from the wild, and you suceed in destroying the market for the poor Indonesian fisherman's catch. The properly trained netsman who was once able to feed his family, by buying rice with the money he received for selling the wildcaught clown, is now SOL (sh-t out of luck). His only alternative, and the one that you have unwittingly fated him, is to look toward the reef for an even greater harvest. (Or else you send him food stamps)

If you save a few clowns, psuedos, or acropora frags, yet you cause a lot more angels, tangs, puffers, sharks, etc. to be eaten, have you really conserved anything? Perhaps a little rice, but I though we were interested in saving the reefs.

For the record I am totally against destructive fishing. I think Mother Nature has supplied a bountiful abundance, and if managed correctly, it can be a sustainable yield. I know we are doing an extremely poor job of managing to date. I hope we get better before it is too late. my 3 cents

 

[Contender]

Have we not gone to college here people? Have we decided to skip economics 101 here? Do we want to "pretend" like that the term doesn't apply to us so that we can sleep well?

Would hate to play an imature game of "you started it," but perhaps if you wanted to keep this discussion clean, you should have led by example. I was just responding on your terms....didn't mean to insult you....too much :roll:

In all honesty, I do think this discussion has served its useful purpose. In the end, we are not going to convince anyone to agree on a single definition of conservation. I think alot of interesting points have come up, though....and we will all walk away a little more sympathetic to everyone else's point of view.

 

[SPC]

Posted by Judy:

Steve,
You do keep the ball rolling with your good questions.

-Thank you Judy and I appreciate the fact that you see my questions as a positive aspect to these types of threads. Its fun to talk about skimmers and lights but when it comes down to it the issues brought up in this thread, and similar ones, are what we as hobbiest should be really paying attention to, IMO. If this hobby is to survive we must address these issues head on and be willing to offer our assistance to those who are trying to make lasting change a reality.
Steve

 

[K77]

I have been particularly impressed with
I think you may be taking banter for insults - it happens often in written discussions. I have felt no venom, no insults, just people saying what they think and asking questions.

You're probably right about that. And I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts. Hey, I'll be happy to play nice. I just don't want to get into name calling...

A side note - I find it disconcerting when people write something like 'I am not going to post on this topic anymore' after they have made points against other people. I find it to be like being hung up on while on the phone, which feels terrible.

RR

Oh man! That whole closure thing again? Look, we can still be friends, ok? We'll still see each other around sometimes. Sure, I'll call you. I *proimise.*
:mrgreen:

 

[K77]

Have we not gone to college here people? Have we decided to skip economics 101 here? Do we want to "pretend" like that the term doesn't apply to us so that we can sleep well?

Would hate to play an imature game of "you started it," but perhaps if you wanted to keep this discussion clean, you should have led by example. I was just responding on your terms....didn't mean to insult you....too much :roll:

Ironically, that was meant to be funny. But in my defense, I watched that Micheal Myers special the night before. If there's anything I've learned from Jewish sarcasm, its that it *is* an excepted form of humor in the Northeast.

{doing my best jewish Linda accent...}
"What, are we all catholics here?"


Go. Talk people. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I just don't want us to start calling each other names here. :mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

Oh man! That whole closure thing again? Look, we can still be friends, ok? We'll still see each other around sometimes. Sure, I'll call you. I *proimise.*
:mrgreen:

You missed my point. Its about announcing you are not going to participate in this discussion anymore, and then posting again anyway. I just think it is rude, like posting in all caps.

RR :mrgreen: