DIYers be careful
- Thread starter aLittletank
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soory guys the link is fixed now
and here it is again just in case
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/sh ... did=131989
Allen
and here it is again just in case
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/sh ... did=131989
Allen
Since I typed a long reply and then when I hit "Submit" I got a message stating that the thread was closed, I will submit my reply even though you all probably don't care. 
Not to stir the pot, but...
I believe what Aquarium Currents (Did I get the name right?
You people are making a big mistake by being so bitter towards this company. This kind of thing makes inventors think twice about trying to take an idea to market.
Do I think the units are overpriced? Yes. I still own two, and would do it again. (BTW- AC if you want to reduce your costs and increase quality and still produce in the US, contact me- that's what I do professionally: manufacturing consulting)
I myself am a serious DIYer, but respect the inventor's intelectual property. I personally have experienced the frustration of seeing your own invention (in this case consulting material) copied and used without insomuch as a reference to me. Trust me, it is an incensing and frustrating experience.
As for what is patentable, you cannot patent the function of a device, but how the function is implemented. In other words, you cannot patent "all oscillating aquarium flow devices." You can patent the design of particular device, but not the function of the device. I could build a rotating output nozzle that is actuated by a set of caged squirrels and that would not be in violation (contact me if you would like the plans to that one, it isn't pattented yet). If I were to design a device that used the same type components and performed the same function using slightly different materials, that is in violation.
If you don't think that AC's concern is valid (the part about DIYers selling them for profit) then think about all the knock offs of patented skimmers out there! It is a valid concern.
Personally, I think all of you should put yourselves in the position of AC and think how you would feel in their shoes and then maybe tone down the criticisms. As for me, I will have a Sea Swirl on any tank I have in the future (unless I can get the bugs worked out of my "Squirrel Swirl" design.)
Ernie
well, i don't know "the whole story", but from what i can suss by your post i agree with you. when i was studying graphic arts i made several designs for businesses (a couple are still in business and still using my design!) who never paid, never acknowledged. since i was still in my beginning classes i hadn't learned about copyrighting. :roll:
in any event, sharing your own plans is one thing, sharing someone else's for PROFIT is another thing ENTIRELY. 'nuff said, eh?
in any event, sharing your own plans is one thing, sharing someone else's for PROFIT is another thing ENTIRELY. 'nuff said, eh?
Reverse engineering a product and building it yourself for personal use is NOT an infringement of anyone's rights or any patent. Neither is the sharing of such work with others in a public domain.
The selling of such plans for profit (even to cover costs) would be however.
This is nothing new. I can make a Jaubert plenum, I can tell someone how to make a Jaubert plenum. I cannot sell a Jaubert plenum. Same goes for the Durso overflow and the same would apply to any other product. A customer of mine made his own AquaC EV skimmer by simply looking at one on my shelf and building it himself. He did not violate Jason's patent on the product in doing so.
Merely losing sales to customers who make their own version of your product is not an injury that would be actionable, because generally in common law the "reasonable and prudent" standard applies. If it would be more reasonable to build your own over buying a commercially manufactured item then the manufacturer cannot claim injury. In other words if the product is so simple that the majority of people can make it themselves then you really don't have a unique product and no real injury. If the majority of consumers out there are still buying the product from the manufacturer and there are a minute few who are making it themselves for personal use this also does not constitute an actionable injury.
Finally it's hard to figure out exactly what is going on due to RC's paranoia about litigation. However if a company were to threaten litigation and actually filed because of the free exchange of ideas then they would be guilty of a SLAPP lawsuit (which may or may not be actionable depending on the state the case is filed). Regardless, such attitudes by companies should and almost always are responded to with contempt by the consumer. see Novak vs. APD List Members
It would be nice to know the real story here, action against someone actively selling plans or equipment that violates a patent would be fully supported by moi.
The selling of such plans for profit (even to cover costs) would be however.
This is nothing new. I can make a Jaubert plenum, I can tell someone how to make a Jaubert plenum. I cannot sell a Jaubert plenum. Same goes for the Durso overflow and the same would apply to any other product. A customer of mine made his own AquaC EV skimmer by simply looking at one on my shelf and building it himself. He did not violate Jason's patent on the product in doing so.
Merely losing sales to customers who make their own version of your product is not an injury that would be actionable, because generally in common law the "reasonable and prudent" standard applies. If it would be more reasonable to build your own over buying a commercially manufactured item then the manufacturer cannot claim injury. In other words if the product is so simple that the majority of people can make it themselves then you really don't have a unique product and no real injury. If the majority of consumers out there are still buying the product from the manufacturer and there are a minute few who are making it themselves for personal use this also does not constitute an actionable injury.
Finally it's hard to figure out exactly what is going on due to RC's paranoia about litigation. However if a company were to threaten litigation and actually filed because of the free exchange of ideas then they would be guilty of a SLAPP lawsuit (which may or may not be actionable depending on the state the case is filed). Regardless, such attitudes by companies should and almost always are responded to with contempt by the consumer. see Novak vs. APD List Members
It would be nice to know the real story here, action against someone actively selling plans or equipment that violates a patent would be fully supported by moi.
There was a link to the US patent office FAQ which in brief said you can't build something that was patented, no ifs, ands or buts. In the wisdom (or is it paranoia) of RC's mods the whole thread was basically deleted. What's left is "stickied" in DIY forum.
Got to admit, I'm a little surprised by some of the reactions by people here...
Reefcentral.com I believe, operates the same way Reefs.org does - they charge advertiser's money, and chip in some of their own bread probably too, to pay the hosting and bandwith charges that their providor's charge....
Folks, this isn't a major company skimming millions of dollars in profit's from selling your personal information! The fee's they would need to even Consult with an attorney over this matter, probably exceed whatever is on deposit in their accounts. While it is shameful that in our society, someone can simply threaten legal action, and more often than not, receive what they want (I should know, just went through it a few weeks ago: read more Here:http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1031217).
I don't argue that this is a really crummy point of our society. HOWEVER, that being said, the threat I think is real for them - It's not a question of wether RC is right or the litigant from SeaSwirl is correct... (e.g what does the patent law say). It's the fight that would kill them. Imagine if reefs.org was embroiled in a legal dispute, dragged into court, and forced to close because some money hungry attorney couldn't take the case Pro Bono.... It could very well happen, and I'm sure that's something we would all like to avoid.
I find it unfortunate that these plans and threads had to be taken down. I myself am looking at purchasing two of these over priced pieces of plastic for my new tank... So as you can imagine, it was a rather poigniant thread for me... I could have saved $400 bucks!
I just think it funny that some people will stand on the mountain top and call them spineless, for not wanting to fight, what appears to be, a losing battle. Who know's, maybe they do have legal counsul, that helps them out for frags... (hell, we got a lawyer in our club!), and maybe he told them: You're gonna lose?
- Mac
Reefcentral.com I believe, operates the same way Reefs.org does - they charge advertiser's money, and chip in some of their own bread probably too, to pay the hosting and bandwith charges that their providor's charge....
Folks, this isn't a major company skimming millions of dollars in profit's from selling your personal information! The fee's they would need to even Consult with an attorney over this matter, probably exceed whatever is on deposit in their accounts. While it is shameful that in our society, someone can simply threaten legal action, and more often than not, receive what they want (I should know, just went through it a few weeks ago: read more Here:http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1031217).
I don't argue that this is a really crummy point of our society. HOWEVER, that being said, the threat I think is real for them - It's not a question of wether RC is right or the litigant from SeaSwirl is correct... (e.g what does the patent law say). It's the fight that would kill them. Imagine if reefs.org was embroiled in a legal dispute, dragged into court, and forced to close because some money hungry attorney couldn't take the case Pro Bono.... It could very well happen, and I'm sure that's something we would all like to avoid.
I find it unfortunate that these plans and threads had to be taken down. I myself am looking at purchasing two of these over priced pieces of plastic for my new tank... So as you can imagine, it was a rather poigniant thread for me... I could have saved $400 bucks!
I just think it funny that some people will stand on the mountain top and call them spineless, for not wanting to fight, what appears to be, a losing battle. Who know's, maybe they do have legal counsul, that helps them out for frags... (hell, we got a lawyer in our club!), and maybe he told them: You're gonna lose?
- Mac
Mac- According to AC, the maker of the sea swirl, there was no threatening of any kind, just a civil request to the admins at reef central to remove the thread and a quote of pertinent patent law.
As for you being out $400, how many are you planning on buying? They are over priced, but not that much! If you are ticked off about being out $400, think how the folks at Aquarium Currents must feel about all the money they spent only to have someone reverse engineer the thing and post the plans on how to duplicate it on the internet!
Here is the link I promised: General Information Concerning Patents from the US Patent and Trademark Office Website
Here is an interesting quote from the website:
"The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the statute and of the grant itself, “the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling” the invention in the United States or “importing” the invention into the United States. What is granted is not the right to make, use, offer for sale, sell or import, but the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, selling or importing the invention."
As for you being out $400, how many are you planning on buying? They are over priced, but not that much! If you are ticked off about being out $400, think how the folks at Aquarium Currents must feel about all the money they spent only to have someone reverse engineer the thing and post the plans on how to duplicate it on the internet!
Here is the link I promised: General Information Concerning Patents from the US Patent and Trademark Office Website
Here is an interesting quote from the website:
"The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the statute and of the grant itself, “the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling” the invention in the United States or “importing” the invention into the United States. What is granted is not the right to make, use, offer for sale, sell or import, but the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, selling or importing the invention."
esmithiii":1bwztzh2 said:
Well that's good then... I'm glad it never came to that... ( :twisted: friggin lawyers... :twisted: )
Hehe, 2-3 of the 1-Inch...
I'm not really ticked about the price.. I used to not understand, how anyone who's straight in their head, would pay nearly 200-clams for a little box and rotating spigot. It just didn't make sense.. you're talking 5-bucks in materials and an AC motor???!!! Then I saw and watched a few tanks with them running... and really started to like them. Bought one about 1.5 years ago, and absolutely love it! I'm planning a new tank and want to run 3-4 of them on it, and I only have the one now... By the time I pay tax/ship it... The 1" are about 200-bucks a pop. I have to get another large pump as well (Iwaki70), and hope to be able to order all of it from one supplier at one time and get a discount of some kind... It's going to be a big order...
Sounds to me like the guy was being very kind, and gentle... by only sending an email. So long as his patent hasn't expired, he's well within his rights to be very unfriendly to the company that did reverse engineer the things. I'm glad to hear he didn't... it's just not nice, but within his rights. I'm not happy that the retail price of these things is what it is, but... that's what it is. If I don't like it, I don't have to buy the product (as I did think for a couple years). I've had friends take their's apart, it's not a complicated device; I've heard the biggest 'thing' to the unit is the waterproof seal that allows it to rotate, and have heard that he has to have those custom manufactured... no doubt pricey, but c'mon.. it's only plastic, we're not talking THAT much money... But woefully I trudge off to work to make the OT to pay for the things, and look at the way they make the tank look, and say... C'est la Vie...
- Mac
Actually, it wasn't a company that reverse-engineered it, but an individual who then posted the plans on how to build your own on reefcentral.
As for the cost, I suspect that it is mainly due to the low volume of units produced. I have had one apart, and there are several plastic pieces that look to be custom designed for the unit. Do you know how much an injection mold costs to make (the mold is used to make the plastic parts)? For a small part such as the top housing on the sea swirl, it costs anywhere from $50K-$150K. Let's say that AC builds 1000 of these units over a couple of years. Thats $50 to $150 per unit that they have to charge to recoup the tooling costs just for one part! Keep in mind that there are several other plastic parts in the unit as well as some machined parts. If they were making 20,000 of these things a year then it would be a different story.
Ernie
Just to add to the cost issue, I was reading the other day a response from the guy at Tunze about the price of the new stream pumps. He was trying to point out what a small market there is for this one of a kind type of equipment, I think he said that they hope to sell 2000 of each unit. As pointed out, with tooling costs etc..., I don't see them making a killing by any means.
Steve
Steve
Ernie is right about patents. I have two. It is illegal to knock off the patent for personal use or otherwise. The strength of a patent is in the claims. Some patents are strong and others are much weaker. A patent now last 20-years. Invisible Fence was a builtproof patent. Radio Fence and the others had to wait until the patent expired. Seaswirl was not the first rotating return device I saw. Greg Meeker used to make one I believe. I think Bruce Davidson of Sandy's had something similar for power heads. If you really want to knock off a patent looks at the claims. If you think you can make it without violating the claims, or if you think you can have the claims invalidated due to something like "prior art" go for it. If you get sued for patent infringment and lose don't feel too sorry for yourself.
There is a great book called "Patent It Yourself". Good reading for the inventor types out there.
Mitch
There is a great book called "Patent It Yourself". Good reading for the inventor types out there.
Mitch
This is a subject close to my heart as well.
An example- I read a similar post over on a freshwater board. Guy made himself a python water changer. These things are the best for FW applications! They really help. Anyhow, for the equivalent of a 50$ python, he spent 28$ on parts found at walmart and a hardware store, and spent about 6 hours researching and assembling. So this guys busts his butt for saving 22$ for 6 hours- thats 3.66$ an hour earned or saved, any way you want to look at it- and the end result- he had his python- and the inventors of the great idea to which he aspired to use, got nothing for it. What a waste of his time, and the inventors effort.
Now I am not going to preach to you about encouraging local business and buy from your LFS - but I will say this. Ideas- good ideas- are worth encouraging, and crediting with a little extra $$. A lot of design work went into that sea swirl I bet. Find a retailer with low markup on it and save your $$ that way.
Or go caveman on it, hire a neighborhood kid to hold the return hose over your tank and turn side to side- if he gets bored, make him touch your halides. He wont get bored often... :twisted:
KK
An example- I read a similar post over on a freshwater board. Guy made himself a python water changer. These things are the best for FW applications! They really help. Anyhow, for the equivalent of a 50$ python, he spent 28$ on parts found at walmart and a hardware store, and spent about 6 hours researching and assembling. So this guys busts his butt for saving 22$ for 6 hours- thats 3.66$ an hour earned or saved, any way you want to look at it- and the end result- he had his python- and the inventors of the great idea to which he aspired to use, got nothing for it. What a waste of his time, and the inventors effort.
Now I am not going to preach to you about encouraging local business and buy from your LFS - but I will say this. Ideas- good ideas- are worth encouraging, and crediting with a little extra $$. A lot of design work went into that sea swirl I bet. Find a retailer with low markup on it and save your $$ that way.
Or go caveman on it, hire a neighborhood kid to hold the return hose over your tank and turn side to side- if he gets bored, make him touch your halides. He wont get bored often... :twisted:
KK
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