How long would you wait?

[Hal1]

I am having a bad day. It's my fault, and I know it, so no flames please. I just flushed my second clownfish in four hours.

I had (key word "had") 2 clownfish in my QT. They had been there almost 4 weeks. The first 3 weeks went swimmingly. They ate well and looked great. No signs of stress at all. Three weeks into quarantine, and the day before I was about to add them to the main tank, I noticed some clamped fins. Next morning, full blown ick.

I started to drop the salinity in the tank from 1.025 to 1.009. After about 4 days, no sign of ick, but I was only at 1.015. In retrospect, here's where I goofed. I took the salinity from 1.015 to 1.009 in about 4 hours. Also, the temp dropped because the RO water that I was adding to dilute the salt was cool/cold.

In any case, next morning, ick was back with a vengeance. The 2 fish had lost most of there color, and gills were flared. Plus it looked like my two fish had swum through a spiderweb. I assume this was slimecoat that they were shedding. The next morning, death ensued.

I learned my lesson, the hard way. I've decided that for future fish, the QT gets dosed with Green-ex (Malachite Green plus Quinine something).

So here's my question, how long would you wait before adding more fish to the QT?

 

[Enzo]

You shouldn't have had the salinity at 1.025 it should be more around 1.023. You also shouldn't have dropped the salinity at all, instead you should have placed each of them in freshwater(that had same PH, was dechlorinated and all the good stuff) for about 7 min. Also you should have treated them with some kind of medicine. Most people use garlic. Just chop garlic and squish it so you have the juice or use garlic extract and soak it in food. It works like a charm. It also builds up their immune system if you feed it regulary and is not harmful to the water since it is natural.

 

[ReefLion]

IMO preventative treatment with antibiotics is a bad idea. The last thing we need is more resistant strains, both of ich and other bacteria. If you want to do something extra, feed with garlic-soaked foods.

Tim

 

[ReefLion]

To answer your question, the life cycle of ich is extremely long, but I think a couple weeks with nothing in the water column would take care of any active spores. The other option is to just empty the QT tank, let it dry, and start over in a week.

Tim

 

[aliendomain]

I would say just empty the entire tank and clean all the filters but this would kill the biological filter. However you can change all the water, greenex the QT for the normal period, then add fish. If you have any sand/gravel in the tank you may want to remove it.

 

[Hal1]

I did treat with garlic. Every other day before I saw the ick. Every day once I saw ick. Selcon about every other day.

A freshwater dip preceded adding the fish to QT.

 

[csv_scorpion]

this might be a stupid question... but can you soak food in garlic for your main tank fish? just to keep their immune system high in case of future ich attacks?

 

[reefNewbie]

You may want to invest in a UV sterilizer for the QT tank.

 

[Anonymous]

No flames for Hal.

However, Enzo, I feel that your information has some issues. What difference would two points in the salinity make in regards to ich? Why do you think that hyposalinity isn't what he should have done? It is what he should have done. His mistake was in using cool/cold water. How is it that 7 minutes is the correct period of time to do the f/w dip? What if the fish are already stressed and can't handle more than 5?

Why do you state that most people use garlic? As demonstrated by Hal's later post, garlic is not a guarantee to ich-free fish. (Though it is a guarantee to tasty fish. ) I would very much like to see a good, repeatable (in the vein of what Mr. Holmes-Farley provides in his articles) scientific study proving (or, of course, disproving) the efficacy of garlic. How did you arrive at the conclusion that garlic builds up a fish's immune system? I'm left wondering how in the world it is that we have any fish in the seas but for garlic! Not harmful since it is natural? Arsenic is natural, is it also good for fish? How about mercury? Maybe he should soak the fish in honey or aloe vera as well? Is that really what you meant to say?

As for the prophylactic use of medications, that, too, is highly arguable. It is widely accepted (if not a provable fact) that pathogens are always in existence in the captive system, just as they are in nature. The "kicker", so to speak, has to do with stress, and, very likely, water quality.

Here's the low-down. Hal did everything he was supposed to, except he neglected to ensure that the water he added was up to temp. He may have pushed dropping the salinity a bit too fast, yes, but that appears to be about it.

So, Hal, I think you've learned a few things from this experience. First, you obviously can't rely on garlic. Second, it is of paramount importance to not allow the water temperature to drop so rapidly. In my opinion this is the straw that broke the camel's back, more so than the rapid drop in salinity. And, I'm certain you're glad you had those fish in q/t and not in the main display. You're doing fine, I'm sorry you lost those fish, but when you go at it again just remember what you've learned and you should be golden. You have done what you are supposed to (although I'm really strict about a 30 day q/t! Stick to it and you won't be sorry you did.)

Now, the suggestion for a U.V. for the q/t is a good, though expensive, one. I am not necessarily a proponent of U.V., but it could be very helpful in keeping a bare-bottomed q/t ich and pathogen free. However, that being said, as long as you keep the q/t bare-bottomed (with PVC or like, sterilizable material to give the animals some hiding places) you can also siphon off the tank bottom daily to rid it of the ich cysts. You can also just go ahead and copper it, though again, that adds expense. I would go with cleaning it out, sterilizing it with bleach, leaving it in the sun--we've got plenty right now at 91F!! Then dechlorinate using Sodium Thiosulfate. Use your nose to make sure it's removed, though it will certainly dissipate within 24hrs, especially if outdoors or in a warm, dry, well-ventilated area. Leaving the tank fallow for a minimum of 6 weeks (8 are better) is another method, but usually used for displays that are suffering ich outbreaks.

Other than that, I could tell you about keeping an eye on your water quality, but something tells me you're well aware of this.

 

[Hal1]

Obviously the prudent thing would be to let the tank go fallow for several weeks, thus ensuring the death of the ick before adding any new fish, or sterilize thru some other means.

If, however, I've decided to medicate the tank with any new additions anyway, is there any reason to wait? Couldn't I add a fish tonight, for example, as long as I medicate with Green-ex? (And brought the salinity back to 1.025, of course.)

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, the salinity does not have to be 1025. If it's within a range of 1026-1020 the fish won't suffer for it.

I would wait. You don't have to let the tank go fallow, you can clean it out and bleach it. But, if you're really in a big hurry then I would raise the temperature to 90F, make the water completely fresh, treat it with copper, and wait at least three weeks. Being in a hurry will surely bite you in the ass (she who speaks from experience!). If it's big enough you can have a warm soak in it while you cool your heels. :lol:

 

[King Jason]

In a short answer NO.

Why risk it when you know there is ich in your QT tank. I would do one of the following.

1. Empty the QT tank and clean out all power heads/equipment with fresh water. Let the QT tank dry and start over by filling it with fresh salt water. Get all parameters correct and then start thinking of your next fish.

2. Leave the tank as it is for a few weeks. I'm not sure exactly on the length of ich's live cycle. But I think 3 weeks minimum.

I vote #1. Good luck! Go slow!

 

[Anonymous]

The length of time required by the ichy critter to complete its life cycle is largely dependant upon the temperature of the water it's in. That's why I said to heat the water to 90F (speeds it up significantly). Even at that high temp I would leave the tank fallow for 6 weeks minimum, and, as I said above, 8 are better.

 

[King Jason]

The length of time required by the ichy critter to complete its life cycle is largely dependant upon the temperature of the water it's in. That's why I said to heat the water to 90F (speeds it up significantly). Even at that high temp I would leave the tank fallow for 6 weeks minimum, and, as I said above, 8 are better.

I agree. I think your best bet is to clean that tank with Seamaiden's suggestions.

 

[Anonymous]

IMO preventative treatment with antibiotics is a bad idea. The last thing we need is more resistant strains, both of ich and other bacteria. If you want to do something extra, feed with garlic-soaked foods.

Tim

fwiw:

ich is not a bacteria

it is, i believe, a (ciliate) protozooan

it is not affected at all by antibiotics

the only actual 'medication' that i'm personally aware of, that, when administered in the proper dosage and manner,will wipe out 100% of ich 100% of the time is copper sulphate.

imho-if monitored and dosed correctly, CuSO4 is a great treatment to use in a quarantine tank as a proactive ich treatment.

most fish will not be severely bothered by the level of copper needed to kill ich, and it's effect on helping already affected fish deal with the organism's choking effects, is almost immediate.(the resulting extra mucus production by the fish upon exposure to copper, an irritant, helps to push the parasite off the gill filaments, afaik)

i think that most copper treatment related problems come from improper levels of Cu in the treatment tank, due to innacurate test kits, and from using forms of Cu other than regular non chelated copper

To answer your question, the life cycle of ich is extremely long, but I think a couple weeks with nothing in the water column would take care of any active spores. The other option is to just empty the QT tank, let it dry, and start over in a week.

the life cycle is usually approximately 4 weeks-though there is at least one strain that can remain active for longer(close to double that, i believe)

the body of water must remain absolutely host free fro at least the length of time of the life cycle, to guarantee that it no longer has a presence in the tank

there are some excellent threads w/good info on ich, both here, and on rc
:wink:

 

[ReefLion]

The original poster said he intended to use Malachite green? That is a compound used to treat bacterial and fungal infections, i.e., an antibiotic. Preventative usage has bad implications, and little upside. It's a needless health risk that should be avoided, especially if it will not help with the underlying problem.

Tim

 

[aquarist=broke]

I'm more interested as to what circumstances would have 2 clownfish fine and dandy for three weeks and then all of a sudden death-bed.

Had you done a water-change the day before, maybe a jump in temperature? Not enough circulation or surface agitation(kinda ruled out from the three weeks thing).

Anything different this week than the others???

 

[Anonymous]

The original poster said he intended to use Malachite green? That is a compound used to treat bacterial and fungal infections, i.e., an antibiotic. Preventative usage has bad implications, and little upside. It's a needless health risk that should be avoided, especially if it will not help with the underlying problem.

Tim

malachite green is a compound derived from zinc, and it is an antifungal, and anti protozoal(to an extent). it is not an antibiotic.

 

[LLLosingit]

I'm more interested as to what circumstances would have 2 clownfish fine and dandy for three weeks and then all of a sudden death-bed.

Had you done a water-change the day before, maybe a jump in temperature? Not enough circulation or surface agitation(kinda ruled out from the three weeks thing).

Anything different this week than the others???

He said he added RO water to further drop the salinity and it was to cold and between the cold water and the quick drop in salinity would be more than enough to do them in.

 

[aquarist=broke]

Accually Hal said:

They had been there almost 4 weeks. The first 3 weeks went swimmingly. They ate well and looked great. No signs of stress at all. Three weeks into quarantine, and the day before I was about to add them to the main tank, I noticed some clamped fins. Next morning, full blown ick.

I know the fish were gonners after he began changing the environment to the extreme. Why did they have Ich in the first place is what enquiring minds want to know?