How long would you wait?

[Anonymous]

Dude, the protozoa and other pathogens are already there, always there. We don't really want to put the animals into a truly sterile environment, even if we could. Please, read above and rethink.

 

[Anonymous]

Accually Hal said:

They had been there almost 4 weeks. The first 3 weeks went swimmingly. They ate well and looked great. No signs of stress at all. Three weeks into quarantine, and the day before I was about to add them to the main tank, I noticed some clamped fins. Next morning, full blown ick.

I know the fish were gonners after he began changing the environment to the extreme. Why did they have Ich in the first place is what enquiring minds want to know?

they had the ich before Hal ever even bought them :wink:

ich is present on most fish as a subclinical infection(not outwardly visible on the fish, but 'hiding'-in gills, under scales, etc.)when in almost any lfs.

stress supresses the immune response system of the fish, and then the ich starts to multiply, becoming apparent as visible symptoms.

just the transfer from the lfs can be enough of a stress trigger

hth

 

[Louis Z]

Get another QT setup while the other one gets treated or remains empty. I would definitely bleach the tank and contents if it were me. If you buy fish all the time then you should have several QT setup all the time. I have 3 currently setup and 2 of them occupied with the same fish since Nov. The last thing I want to do is take a chance on the main tank. Its easier to deal with the QT than the main in case of outbreak.

 

[ReefLion]

Malachite green is a general agent used to treat lots of different problems, including bacteria, although the anti-bacterial effect is mild. In any case, my underlying point remains. Treating parasites preventatively is not a good long term solution. The most likely result is resistant forms of the parasite.

Tim

"General Information

Malachite Green is used to treat ectoparasites such as gill flukes, Ich and Trichodina as well as bacteria and fungal infections. Dosage rates differ depending on species, and must be used only on closed systems such as ponds or aquaria. When used in conjunction with Paracide-F or Formalin, the Malachite Green-Formalin combination is more potent than either one used separately (Synergism)."

http://www.argent-labs.com/malachitegreen.htm

 

[anthem]

Couple of things that need to be clarified:

-Cryptocaryon is a protozoa that is NOT always present. Easily eradicated using hyposalinity or copper. It can exist in a sub-clinical form, but that is nor 'dormant' - its always going through its lifecycle, just a matter if we actually see it or not.
-Garlic has not been proven to be effective. Especially in full blown outbreaks of crypto. It works very well as a food inducer, but of very limited use in anything beyond a few spots.

Hal, couple of notes on hyposalinity. If you have a full blown outbreak, you can drop the salinity quite quickly. Even immediately if need be. Most people do it within 48 hours, 4 days is way too slow. If you're going to use hypo as a treatment for crypto, it isn't effective until it reaches south of 1.010. Above that, the crypto lifecycle continues. Thats why after a few days, it was even worse - the next large lifecycle just broke out and re-infected your clowns. You do need to be slowering in bringing the salinity back up (generally 4 days to a week).

You must watch your pH carefully and buffer appropriately. Low salinity has a much more difficult time holding pH. This is ESPECIALLY true if you use RO water, as RO water is deficient of just about any alkalinity (ph hovering around 7) and can actually use up whatever little carbonates that you have left in your system.

This wasn't a factor in your case, but you MUST use a refractometer or salinity monitor when measuring salinity down near 1.009-1.010. Swing arm hydrometers will not work accurately enough for one to be successful with hyposalinity.

For your qt tank setup. The fastest way to rid the crypto, is to dry the tank out. Once its dry for a few days, you'll be fine. The difficulty will be re-cycling the filter. Generally its faster this way (and then get some bio-media from your tank) than waiting out 5-6 weeks.

 

[Bron-yr-aur]

Dude....... Please, read above and rethink.

You have a knack for getting on a person's last nerve with your high and mighty posts. :roll:

 

[Hal1]

To answer several questions:

aquarist=broke: I didn't do anything different before the first ick outbreak. No water changes, temp changes, etc.

I agree, that the big question is why did it take three full weeks for ick to show?

And yes, once I did the rapid salinity and temp change, the fish were, in retrospect, doomed.

My salinity was measured with a refractometer.
Ph held constant at 8.0-8.2 (its hard for me to match the colors)

Vitz, actually, I said I was going to use Green-ex, which is a mixture of malachite green and quinine something. According to Bob Fenner:

"Malachite green is a common chemical used widely in the U.S. for the treatment of fish parasites. It is effective when used as directed, by itself or in concert with other ingredients"

"Quinines are used by some hobbyists with good results".

-The Conscientious Marine Aquarist


Prior to the first ick outbreak, I had been soaking the food in garlic every other day. Changed to every day when I saw the ick. Selcon in food about every other day.

 

[Anonymous]

Dude....... Please, read above and rethink.

You have a knack for getting on a person's last nerve with your high and mighty posts. :roll:

What, you only have one left? :p

 

[aquarist=broke]

To answer several questions:

aquarist=broke: I didn't do anything different before the first ick outbreak. No water changes, temp changes, etc.

I agree, that the big question is why did it take three full weeks for ick to show?

Thanks for answering my question Hal. I doubt that anyone [cough]seamaiden[/cough] would've known the answers that you have provided me with.

Vitz says that they had Ich before you ever bought them, and I agree with that. I should've said:

"What triggered the Ich to proliferate to the level they had on the fourth week after three swimmingly weeks?"

I had been soaking the food in garlic every other day

Perhaps the food you are serving your fish is not nutritional enough and after three weeks of "bad" food they caught a cold(ich).

 

[Anonymous]

Hal wrote:

Vitz, actually, I said I was going to use Green-ex, which is a mixture of malachite green and quinine something. According to Bob Fenner:

"Malachite green is a common chemical used widely in the U.S. for the treatment of fish parasites. It is effective when used as directed, by itself or in concert with other ingredients"

"Quinines are used by some hobbyists with good results".

-The Conscientious Marine Aquarist

ReefLion wrote:

Malachite green is a general agent used to treat lots of different problems, including bacteria, although the anti-bacterial effect is mild. In any case, my underlying point remains. Treating parasites preventatively is not a good long term solution. The most likely result is resistant forms of the parasite.

Tim

"General Information

Malachite Green is used to treat ectoparasites such as gill flukes, Ich and Trichodina as well as bacteria and fungal infections. Dosage rates differ depending on species, and must be used only on closed systems such as ponds or aquaria. When used in conjunction with Paracide-F or Formalin, the Malachite Green-Formalin combination is more potent than either one used separately (Synergism)."

look guys, no offence intended here, but:


i define 'effective' as meaning at least a 90% or better rate of cure, due to the direct effect of the treatment agent.

the amount of people who use it for something does not determine an agent's effectiveness, nor does the fact that someone recommends, or uses an agent, make that agent the best means of treatment.

malachite green is not a true, effective, anti bacterial agent, and is a fairly weak antiprotozoal agent, compared to CuSO4.

malachite green's main purpose is to prevent and treat fungal attacks which occur as a secondary result of the wound that ich creates on the fish, hence the reason why it is almost always found combined w/formalin, in ich medications.

to claim that malachite green is an antibiotic is misleading, if not downright misinformation :wink:


there is nothing wrong, or uncommon, w/prophylactic treatment of anything, imho, as long as it is done correctly- commercial aquaculture, and commercial food raising industries in general do it all the time, and w/great success.

antibiotics, however, are a slightly different story :wink:

they are severely overused, both in the animal husbandry industries, and in human health care, as well :wink:

my observations from personal experience as a hobbyist,the experiences of many other hobbyists i've dealt with over the years, and as a commercial aquaculture worker, have shown me that copper, out of all the other meds used to treat ich, in fresh and salt water, is the only truly effective medication, that is succesful very close to 100% of the time.


(there are also many 'medications' you can find on the shelves of almost every lfs which are either completely useless, or have no relevance to the diseases the companies claim they can treat.). :wink:

just wanted to clarify my statements abit, and also to request that a drug that is not an antibiotic not be labeled as such-it is misleading, and can also confuse people as to when to use a true antibiotic :wink:


re:greenex...

i have seen greenex be completely ineffective against ich, and wipe out a reef tank, at least 100 times, during my stints at various lfs's.

usually with folks who refused to quarrantine a fish and properly treat w/copper sulfate, but rather chose to believe what others said about malachite green, it's effectiveness, and it's safety in reef tanks :wink:

 

[anthem]

In terms of copper, CuSO4 is fairly effective. For hobbiest, I would recommend the use of Cupramine(cooper amine compound). Copper amine has a higher tolerance level for fish (and margin for error). CuSO4 has very little tolerance. The one copper that everyone shyould avoid is CopperSafe though.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for answering my question Hal. I doubt that anyone [cough]seamaiden[/cough] would've known the answers that you have provided me with.

I was only trying to point out that those questions had already been answered. I felt that you hadn't read my post and some others that had really good information and, in my opinion at least, answered the whys of it very well.

Vitz says that they had Ich before you ever bought them, and I agree with that.

I had also pointed this out.

Perhaps the food you are serving your fish is not nutritional enough and after three weeks of "bad" food they caught a cold(ich).

He said in his second or third post that he is also using a supplement, Selcon. It shouldn't be ruled out, because nutrition is just as important as water quality. In my opinion, the as-yet-to-be-known water quality parameters are the real direction to look in when considering the first presentation of infection. I believe that this might have played a significant role. Water quality issues generally tend show themselves as a slow decline in health, not the "sudden" onset he described. But, as vitz stated, it doesn't take much to stress a fish.

From his post, it seems to me that the fish were showing improvement during the time he was dropping the salinity. The only other factors that would have made the difference were either the time taken to drop the salinity (in my opinion not at all likely) or the rapid drop in temperature (very likely). I have seen many fish, healthy otherwise, be severely stressed with a rapid and large (more than 5F/24hrs.) temperature drop (in a commercial setting) enough times to recognize this, so I feel confident with the conclusions I have reached. I have never witnessed a temperature jump have this effect, nor have I read of this in any literature.

vitz, I have had the same experience with the use of copper, and see it still in practice today by folks who don't intend to sell their (many thousands of) fish or have to replace them on a regular basis. The methods used are in complete agreement with yours. Though, while freshwater dips are used, I don't see hyposalinity used very often. Then again, copper is used with almost all fish q/t'd, with the exception of frogfishes (or those extremely stressed).

I would like to elaborate on something vitz only hinted at: how bacteria are affected by the prophylactic use of antibiotics and why this makes a bacterium different from a parasite (in this case the aforementioned protozoan).
Bacteria are able to reproduce at truly phenomenal rates, some doubling their numbers in ideal conditions to overwhelming proportions within a matter hours. But this is not the reason we should avoid overusing antibiotics or anti-microbial soaps and solutions if we don't need to.
Along with this ability to "procreate like rabbits", bacteria are also able to mutate at an equally phenomenal rate. This one factor alone is enough to create resistant strains, but there's more.
If you use an antibacterial substance that leaves even one bacterium, that one is a resistant strain, and that one is able to actually share its resistant DNA with other bacteria, even those of different species. This is where the prospects get really scary.

So, Hal, have you decided how you're going to proceed?

 

[aquarist=broke]

Anything different this week than the others???

Was what I was getting at.

I have never witnessed a temperature jump have this effect, nor have I read of this in any literature

I ment temperature change , but they were just examples to help "jog" his memory.

I was only trying to point out that those questions had already been answered. I felt that you hadn't read my post and some others that had really good information

I sorry seamaiden, couldn't find any post from Hal or anybody else that mentioned he had not altered the water parameters, accidentally omitted a heater from his QT, or even done anything different this fourth week than the other three before Hal finally responded. I wouldn't have bothered everybody, yourself included, with my questions if they had been answered. Besides, everybody seemed to be having a disagreement as to what the Proto-whatevers were classified as and what kills them, while I was just looking at the problem from a different angle.

It is of my opinion (from experience) that temperature swings can bring on sickness.

I have helped others with my "Dude....... Please, read above and rethink." attitude.

 

[GnG]

Ich does through several stages in its lifes cycle. Some are sensitive to chemical treatment and low salinity, some aren't. The parasitic form is in the fish's tissue and very resistant to any form of chemical treatment. The trick is to catch the cysts when they emerge from the host and are in their planktonic stage. Remember that copper can also stress the fish. A test kit to determine the proper concentration of copper is absolutely necessary if you should decide to use copper sulfate.

 

[Hal1]

"So, Hal, have you decided how you're going to proceed?" - Seamaiden

Unfortunately, not yet. I agree that most of the literature and anecdotes indicate that copper is the best treatment. I haven't made my peace with not being able to put any inverts in the tank ever again, though. For this reason alone the Green-ex is still an option. I think it will be either Green-ex or Copper.

I am more likely to use the Green-ex prophylactically, and the Copper only if symptoms show, but that too, is still under debate.

 

[Anonymous]

"So, Hal, have you decided how you're going to proceed?" - Seamaiden

Unfortunately, not yet. I agree that most of the literature and anecdotes indicate that copper is the best treatment. I haven't made my peace with not being able to put any inverts in the tank ever again, though. For this reason alone the Green-ex is still an option. I think it will be either Green-ex or Copper.

I am more likely to use the Green-ex prophylactically, and the Copper only if symptoms show, but that too, is still under debate.

this is one of the reasons why a quarrantine tank is an essential part of any salwater hobbyist's setup :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

I don't see why a separate system for corals and inverts wouldn't be a good idea (cost notwithstanding).

They don't require the same water volume as fish, since they don't require swimming space, and in my experience they don't pollute the water to anywhere near the same degree, thus helping to negate the same water quality issues one has with vertebrates. Also, if you kept live rock in there full time (good quality) it would further help with water quality for the aforementioned inverts. Your only other issue would be lighting for hermatypic critters.

If you do this long enough then you will find, as vitz and I have, that you will end up having to use copper in your q/t. It is standard practice for at least one public aquarium I know of to use it entirely prophylactically for all new fish (with the strict exception of frogfishes).

 

[Hal1]

I was just reading some posts on Green-ex. Very mixed bag. Some people say it nuked their tank. Now, granted, I'm not going to be adding it to my main tank.

Seamaiden wrote-

If you do this long enough then you will find, as vitz and I have, that you will end up having to use copper in your q/t.

That's probably the best point of this entire thread. Especially since I plan on at least one tang down the road (probably a yellow and maybe a regal/hippo). Copper is probably inevitable.