NEED MAJOR HELP - PLEASE READ - DYING FISH!

[INGLEDUE]

Ok nobodies dead yet, but I really need help! I will give you the situation, all opinions welcome.

I bought a 120 existing tank 6 weeks ago, I had never had a saltwater tank prior, but have had freshwater species for 20 years. The tank came with 150 pds live rock, appropriate light, temp, salinity, filters, overflows etc. And the seller teaching me quite a bit about the ecosystem and actually helped me set it up and even came over the night after to look things over. I am absolutely not worried about water quality, and have tested it.

The problem the tank came with 12 corals, and 2 fish being a maroon clown, and a blue hippo tang. They were peaceful enough, but I then added a yellow tang, flame angel and Mandarin Gobi after a week. Still peaceful, then I added 14 days latter coral beauty angel, feather duster, 2 cleaner shrimp. Shortly thereafter the maroon Clown and the Tang have started fighting, not viciously to the death mind you. It seems the hippo tang liked hanging around the leather the clown was protecting. But the blue tang 2 nights ago had a few white spots, I must have sat there an hour watching him go back and forth. I wish I new a site that shows ick versus fungus (anybody?), but I swear they are not tiny little dots like I think Ick would make at least like it does in freshwater (also I bought 2 cleaner shrimp in the second batch for this purpose). They look more like fungus but not really like traditional fungus I am used to such as in freshwater either, there is really no growth. Then two days ago this all came to light after my last purchase a long nose hawk, 6 lined wrase and Yellow Watchman Gobi, talk about bad timing.

Anyway, is anyone of the opinion it is from fighting with the clown? Something else? Not Ick, at least please tell me that much, not Ick?!?!? As I have not set up a q-tank yet, as I did NOT KNOW I can't use cooper based products in with the reef, and that was my plan if I ever got it, though in 30 years I have only gotten Ick twice, and used clown loaches in fresh water as indicators . . anyway back to salt. There is absolutely no way I can net him I tried not even in the ballpark it will never happen, too much rock, too fast too shy. Problem is today I watched him when I got home and it is 10,000.00% worse, and the 2 were fighting worse yet. And the tang was scratching on rocks as well, again I closely looked at his tank mates, and keep in mind again he was the original inhabitant, notta spot on any of them.

Again some other facts, water quality is excellent there are no problems tests are normal, filters working, salinity fine, all fish even him appear lively and healthy and eating well. No other fish including the clown who is in close proximity shows any speck of this, I am afraid he might be marked for death. My BIGGER concern is his tank mates I do not have the capacity or ability to remove all that rock to net the fish, when I bought the tank, the tang literally hid lying horizontally under the last rock to avoid netting.

In the interim I have set my lights to 3 hours only for tomorrow, I have moved the finger leather, and almost got attacked myself, that clown has an attitude, I put it in the spot the blue tang goes least in the bottom of one corner. I have read a bit on this site, about garlic, does that do anything for fungus? Bare in mind this guy is the best eater in the tank, so he will eat more than the others. Is there anything that can cure it, help it, IN THE REEF? hell any cleaner fish, I already have a wrase and 2 cleaner shrimp, but I will buy whatever it takes as there is no way that fish is gonna come out of that tank without totally taking everything out. I also read about UV sterilizers, any good with fungus, or whatever the problem is.

HELP HELP HELP!

 

[LeoR]

Start all over and describe the symptoms first:
White spots mean Ich (either White Spot or Velvet disease), fuzzy patches means fungus.

The main cause = Overcrowded tank and incompatible fish.
Results in:
-- Impaired immune system because of psychological stress (from fighting, fear, discomfort), and
-- Toxic ammonia spikes (hard to detect with a test kit but still harmful).

LeoR

 

[INGLEDUE]

Start all over and describe the symptoms first:
White spots mean Ich (either White Spot or Velvet disease), fuzzy patches means fungus. ----------- it's white, but the size is larger than a tiny dot, it is bigger, that any ick I am used to from freshwater. Which is why I really need a visual reference. It looks cloudy like fungus?!!? And to me from my memory this looks quite larger, substantially. I am admittedly unfamiliar with velvet or it's cause.

The main cause = Overcrowded tank and incompatible fish. ---------- again fish were compatible, and the most aggressive fish in the tank is the dumb tang and the clown, but the clown is only aggressive if you are near his home, the leather.

Toxic ammonia spikes (hard to detect with a test kit but still harmful). --------- doubt it can be that, I test it every day reads 0, no spike, the live rock was cured for over a year as a preexisting reef tank. The bioload should be able to handle what I have added only 3 fish at a time and under 4" at that. 1" of fish added per 10 gallons with 30 gallons of the tank area for rock as the 120 gallon tank only took 90 gallons to fill. I just can't fathom it being the load on the system. One thing I did not mention, is this tank as a bare bottom, no sand at all, at night a pump comes on stirs the bottom with slightly larger particles coming to the front for me to syphon, and smaller ones going to the overflow. So hard to imagine a build up of that nature.

Thanks,

 

[LeoR]

Sounds like White spot Ich (tiny dots would be Velvet Ich). If fish scratch, it's probably Ich (they rarely scratch from fungus).

The tank is overcrowded -- count fishes rather than inches.
And the fighting proves there is incompatibility.

Your filtration system does not sound particularly impressive. It would be a good idea to reduce the bioload and start adding sand bottom.

I already mentioned that ammonia spikes are not easy to detect. You'd have to keep taking samples all day and night, and from many different points in the tank to rule out ammonia spikes.

LeoR

 

[INGLEDUE]

Sounds like White spot Ich (tiny dots would be Velvet Ich). If fish scratch, it's probably Ich (they rarely scratch from fungus). ---- Well, one thing I have neglected is to me they do look like wounds, maybe not which is why I posted. what seems not very logical is how and why one fish would have the ick, and no others would, I am 100% certain of this fact as of 3 hours ago only one fish has anything and it's the one loosing the battle. I do wonder what it is of course, but am more concerned about what I can or can't do about it.

The tank is overcrowded -- count fishes rather than inches. And the fighting proves there is incompatibility. ------------- Well I am sure everyone has different numbers of fish based on this or that, but the fish store owner I talked to said this would be fine, but is 2-3 away from my limit. Now I have read allot about dumb store owners, and jack*** people who do not care about your tank, this guy is not one, and I was referred specifically to him for this reason by the prior owner of the tank. I have to drive 90 miles to get to the store, and do so passing a fairly good store locally 4 blocks away, and about 10 more in between. I would never drive that fair, if I did not support the integrity of that owner, you can tell the difference if you know what I mean, some people care they aren't just merchandise. Again though the fighting is ONLY when the tang comes around the leather, no where else. And again is from the original inhabitants of the tank, but perhaps they do not like tankmates, well they will have to get used to it, or he will die, because I like movement, the corals do not give me much pleasure, if any. Both fish get along with everyone else, but both are the dominant fish, perhaps for the simple fact they have been there the longest.

Your filtration system does not sound particularly impressive. It would be a good idea to reduce the bioload and start adding sand bottom. ---------- I have not described the filtration system, I did not feel it is relevant, based on the readings I am getting with my kits. However, it is fairly simple, for me to go overboard and buy all kinds of equipment which I know nothing about would be more foolish than not, though like I mentioned UV skimmer if it will help I will buy. In addition, the prior owner had this system setup and had all 12 of his corals live the whole time and all are still living now, must have done something right. The system is a simple wet-dry with protein skimmer, and the sump pump mentioned prior and stirs the bottom and keeps it clean. I also have 30 turbo's and 50 scarlet hermits.

I already mentioned that ammonia spikes are not easy to detect. You'd have to keep taking samples all day and night, and from many different points in the tank to rule out ammonia spikes. ----------- But 0 in 120 tank, to a spike that would cause physical harm i.e. stress? I sound skeptical only because it seems impossible, don't get me wrong I am CERTAIN you know more than me, but I know how to take readings and accurately. I can't see how it could be that extreme, not pervasive in one small area of the tank, of course he says near the top middle, where there would be no decaying matter, at night maybe, but again bare bottom. Then add I have not yet described how the water flows back into the tank through 12 jet tubes distributing it evenly along the whole top. Also no fish in the tank appears stressed, the Clown attacks me if I come close to the finger, (only fish I could dream of netting), so it is not a stress induced response, it is a defense response.

Ok so again I guess to the real point either way what can I do with what I got. If it’s ick, what buy a neon goby, a uv skimmer, feed garlic soaked food and if all else falls try kick ick after 45 days, all be it very carefully. Trust me I have read about this and attempted to plot a course of action, the problem is I got to identify what I have, and without a visual guide somewhere I am at a loss. If it’s not ick then what can I do with a fish who has wounds on his body that I can’t possible net. I am hoping by moving the finger leather they will not be around each other any longer. I have also read that garlic is an antifungal, so perhaps that may work. What I am more interested in is there any fungal medications I can use with the corals?

Thanks again,

 

[Panagiotakis]

After reading all of the above , my view is too much tooo soon.
The LFS owner and previous owner will swoon you to believe what they want whilst your pockets are emptied.The number of fish should of been introduced over many months not weeks or days.
Too great a bioload will create all these symptoms that you are experiencing.
Quarantine tank should be a priority,you have placed the cart before the horse by purchasing the fish and plonking them in your tank.
Get the quarantine tank up and running and transfer some of your livestock to it after it has settled from cycling.
Alternative is return some fish back to the LFS and ask if he can hold them for a while whilst your tank settles with the new changes that are happening.
As far as ick, hyposalinity or garlick.
Research on both you decide.

 

[Panagiotakis]

[No message]

 

[Vixyswillie]

Agree with Panagiotakis. Any LFS owner who advises you to add 4 fish in 21 days is not helping you. Some here would even question you adding one fish per month, as each fish needs plenty of time to acclimate to its new environment and tankmates. Also - the yellow tang shouldn't be in a 120 by itself, let alone with yet another tang and 4 other fish. The flame angel and coral beauty are likely destined to fight, as well. And the Mandarin... well... good luck.

Please take the sound advice offered above: get a QT set up ASAP and reduce your bioload. Keep us posted with your progress - good luck!

 

[SPC]

In addition, the prior owner had this system setup and had all 12 of his corals live the whole time and all are still living now, must have done something right.

-Yes, but the prior owner did not introduce all of the fish you mentioned above, the tank is different now. Just because the corals appear to be living does not mean that they are in good health or will be living next week.
As mentioned above by several posters, you introduced too many fish in a short period of time. In the future, please read and post questions about any new animals you are thinking of adding before you purchase them.
Steve

 

[spawn_e_git]

1 st you need to sperate the fighting fish. A Trapeeze is the best solution for this. This is a very good way of removing your fish without dismantling the whole tank. It may take a couple of days to get the right fish but it will be less stressful to all.

2nd. You've been stocking to quickly. Forget you water quality and think as you in your house and having a load of kids delivered every week! You'll now understand.

I agree that it would be good if there was a database of fish with illnesses but not many books etc have these. I have taken pic's of sick fish before and most of the time you won't see the symptoms because of water reflection etc.

I would get a Trapeeze and remove the fish, bag it up an take it to your LFS. He will be able to then have a look at it closly and under normal light.

I would suggest a quarantine tank, they really are worth their weight in gold. You don't need anything other than a tank and a filter. As most quarantine tanks have copper used in them a skimmer/Uv cannot be used.

Hope this helps

 

[esmithiii]

INGLEDUE: Welcome to the board! We are always glad to have a new member who can share his/her insight and experience, no matter how new to saltwater they may be.

First, about saltwater: there are some criticical differences between salt and freshwater systems and some nuances that make saltwater tanks, equipment and livestock different in some regards to fresh. One key difference is that the wealth of common knowledge that exists for freshwater husbandry relative to the difficulty and range of species far exceeds that of saltwater. My point is the freshwater hobby is farther along than the saltwater hobby, in terms of commonly accepted practices and understanding. You will find more apparently contradictory approaches in this hobby than in freshwater. The "rules of thumb" for saltwater are much more complex with less universal agreement than in fresh. Because of this, it is very easy to get some very bad advice from people who seem knowledgeable and experienced.

Second, about tangs: These are fish that roam in the wild and need exercise. Usually a 4' tank is plenty for the smaller species, but most people concur that a 6' tank is preferred. It is not so much the tank volume, but the ability of the tang to cruise up and down the length of the tank. Tangs are less stressed when they have the room. The extra room is especially important when more than one tang is present in a tank. Tangs are especially aggressive to fish that are similar in shape or size. You may not see this aggression immediately. In fact, it usually comes when the fish is more accustomed to its surroundings.

Third, about tangs and ich: For some reason, these fish are particularly succeptible to ich. It may not look the same as freshwater ich, but remember it is a different pathogen entirely. Hippo tangs are particularly succeptible. Treating with garlic is really your only option at this point. If the problem persists for more than a month, I would remove the fish and treat with copper in a seperate tank. Copper is deadly to most invertibrates, so you will want to make sure that no water from your "hospital tank" makes its way to the main tank.

Fourth, about stocking: I don't care what advice you were given, you have too many fish in that tank and you added them too quickly. I don't know who originated the addage, but it is quite true :"Only bad things happen fast in a reef aquarium." As I see it, you have more fish in your 120 than I do in my 180! There are more considerations than simply if the tank can support the waste created by the fish.

My main advice is to read, read and then read some more. Some excellent choices:

Natural Reef Aquariums: Simplified Approaches to Creating Living Saltwater Microcosms by John H. Tullock, Martin A. Moe
Marine Fishes: 500+ Essential-To-Know Aquarium Species (The Pocketexpert Guide Series for Aquarists and Underwater Naturalists, 1) by Scott W. Michael
Aquarium Corals : Selection, Husbandry, and Natural History by Eric H. Borneman, J. E. N. Veron

Once again, welcome to the board. Keep asking questions, and keep questioning the advice you get (here and elsewhere.) Good luck with your tank.

 

[ReefLion]

Everyone has given you some good advice overall. Right now what Ernie said about garlic is the best and easiest thing to start with. Over the last year or so, a number of people have reported success with ich by soaking food in garlic extract before feeding. This can be done with all the food going in, and in fact some folks do it now as a matter of course to prevent outbreaks. Do a couple searches on this board for "garlic" and "ich" and you should have lots of info on that.

As others have said, the next thing to do is to try to remove some of the fish. That effort might be dictated by what's easiest to get into a net, but it sounds like you should make some extra effort to remove either the tang or the clown. If those are wounds and not ich, that is the only solution to your problem.

Regarding filtration, without knowing anything other than what you've said, a lot of us would feel that whatever your filtration is, it's inadequate merely because there is no significant sand bed. That probably means you are using something other than a protein skimmer for filtration, and whatever that is could be causing problems. I would suggest a couple searches on "deep sand bed" or "DSB" on this board. Read everything you can, and especially articles by Shimek linked here. There is probably something in the reefs.org library or faq's as well.

Lastly, I also highly recommend Natural Reef Aquariums by Tullock. It is relatively inexpensive, easy to read, and for the most part includes current information. It is my favorite reef book among a 12-15" library of reef books.

Tim

 

[INGLEDUE]

Well, thank you all for the valuable input so here are my responses:

The LFS owner and previous owner will swoon you to believe what they want whilst your pockets are emptied. ------------ Well, I do not see it that way let me explain The previous owner could care less about how many fish, I think everybody can agree on that. Don’t get me wrong I know the number of fish I have added is a lot, that was my decision to push that, but the bioload should handle it, from what I was told, by more than one source, though more than one source is saying opposite now. Perhaps the real problem is just the fact I have a blue tang and it is very susceptible to about anything. A previous shop owner once told me if you look at a clown loach oddly they would get ick. My point is in a freshwater tank a clown loach was a valuable part of the ecosystem, because you knew something was wrong. In this case this “indicator fish” the tang is going to cause me heaps of trouble cause I can’t net him, regardless what has caused it, and I can’t treat the tank. Whether they adapt well with each other was not something I discussed, nor considered, since that is the way it is, some fish don’t fit the norm so there are no guarantees, I think we can all agree on that.

Quarantine tank should be a priority, you have placed the cart before the horse by purchasing the fish and plonking them in your tank. ---------- Only because I thought I could use cooper based products, we are past that what’s done is done. Obviously I it’s a little late now and the fish I have the problem with is not coming out.

Also - the yellow tang shouldn't be in a 120 by itself, let alone with yet another tang and 4 other fish. --------------- I think you are assuming something, I intend to sell back both it and the blue tank when they are larger, assuming they make it that long. I have done this repeatedly with fresh water I think more smaller fish creates more movement, and is more appealing, in fresh water it actually PAID FOR EVERYTHING, because I would make mated pairs of some rare species. Once any fish hits 8” it’s time to move them, BUT one thing I did not consider the netting of those fish!!!!! Oops another large error.

The flame angel and coral beauty are likely destined to fight, as well. ---------------------- That depends, from what I read prior to introducing them, is some people keep them together successfully some don’t, I’ve done my homework, please read some other posts on the two and you should come to the same conclusion, iffy. I have had a lot of success in freshwater, though that does not mean, I will immediately and that I won’t have problems, but it proves I have had luck before, pressing it.

And the Mandarin... well... good luck. ----------------- Again I already did my homework, and was advised by shop owner they are hard to keep and why, again see owner wants my fish to live. I purposefully give him extra food with a turkey baseter and he is fat and happy. It my opinion the wrasse is gonna be the challenge.

In the future, please read and post questions about any new animals you are thinking of adding before you purchase them. ------------------ I already have, the only concern I had is will the hawk fish each the cleaner shrimp, if the test are 0, and everyone here is then telling me the tests are wrong then why on goods earth am I testing my water? Seriously I am a complete loss on this, and I’m not really joking. Call me ignorant, but I am not seeing how two fighting fish when one comes next to the others home, is indicative of a larger problem. Perhaps someone has to see it to understand, it very well could be ick, which is why I posted. Moving the clown from the middle of the tank to the edge should help, afterall again clown stays around the leather, the tank in the top middle (which was where the leather was in the dead center of the tank.

I agree that it would be good if there was a database of fish with illnesses but not many books etc have these. I have taken pic's of sick fish before and most of the time you won't see the symptoms because of water reflection etc. ---------- exactly I tried can’t see anything, and he’s too fast for my shutter speed. I went to fishpharmacy.com, but they all sound alike, and no pic’s. I was also concerned that ick might look different in saltwater.

The "rules of thumb" for saltwater are much more complex with less universal agreement than in fresh. ------------- Believe me I have noticed, but I understand as well, I think people here that are posting think I am a complete idiot, for example the poster saying good luck with the mandarin has no idea I read about it’s requirements before purchase, and have taken steeps. And that for example I picked not to have a Catalina Goby because the temperate requirement is slightly different, and he would last long.

Usually a 4' tank is plenty for the smaller species, but most people concur that a 6' tank is preferred -------------- my tank is 5 or 6’ actually it is a slender tank, not what I preferred. I am glad to know it seems the blue tang is gonna be my indicator fish in saltwater, I might get rid of him if he is that susceptible to it, if at all possible that is.

Thank you for all your replies, I will move forward with my plan and see if it works if they all die. Which is do 5% water change per day (unless someone has a reason not to add 2 day old aged water to the system to keep the water quality tip top), keep the bottom clean every other day, light 3 hrs per day when I am home so I can observe behavior, feed twice daily garlic soaked food, possible introduction of yes another fish, if it can do any good Nean Goby. Also in addition, you will note the life cycle of ick, having a bare bottom, is to my advantage in this situation, ick settles in gravel, it can't on glass. That is how I treated my freshwater tanks, the 2 times I got it, moving them to a bare tank. UNLESS saltwater ick has a difference life cycle?


Thanks,

 

[Russ1]

PLEASE! Do us a favor and read the books suggested. We are trying to help you! You are new to saltwater and things are different! Aged water doesn't cut it in saltwater. Your fish are yelling at you for help through us!

 

[INGLEDUE]

Ok nobody reply I will read the books, but like people on this forum, everybody has a differnet opinion, including the books. I have read about 300 posts and 1200 replies minimum in last month, one says white the other says black. I understand this is different than fresh, however, that experience, inlight of what all you are saying makes me disagree, right or wrong. There's an old saying "go with your gut" my gut tells me it's from fighting, my gut tells me the clown is overagressive, my gut tells me the blue is a weak fish prone to illness, my gut tells me I'd be better off if that bastard ran into the rocks and knocked himself out, and my gut tells me it is not ick, and they look like battle wounds. I need to get him out I will investigate traping systems.

No aged water, direct from my tap, ok. Please nobody disagree, this is my last reply, as it seems everybody on here, from reading other posts, has a different opinion. The one thing you all agree on for sure is too many fish, well, I am likely gonna die trying, but I'm keeping them all in the tank as is, and we will see if I can pull it off. I will post back in a month, and we will see where I ended up at, or sooner if they all die off, as of today no other fish is affected still, and most ate the garlic laced food, included mister hog the tang. The ones who did not are the obvious species.

Thanks

 

[SPC]

Please nobody disagree, this is my last reply,

:wink: :lol:
Steve

 

[esmithiii]

Ingledue-

I am not sure I would do the water changes unless your tests show something is wrong. As for the mandarin, how much liverock do you have? I have one and if yours is eating (mine eats "pods" found on the liverock) you shouldn't worry too much.

As for your blue tang, it is most probably ich. That particular spacies is very prone to it. Is it caused by the stress of being beat up by the clown? probably. Maroon clowns are notoriously aggressive when in their host. I am surprised that the tang doesn't simply stay away. I have had a hippo tang (pacific blue tang) and it got ich every now and then but it would clear up on its own. When I controlled the temp swings my tank was having, the problem practically stopped until the fish went carpet surfing.

Hippo tangs are beautiful fish. When kept properly they are hearty and a good choice for a reef tank that is sufficiently large. If you are ever in Atlanta, there is an amazing store there with a large (600g+) display with several that are near dinner-plate sized. Amazing and beautiful fish.

The one thing you all agree on for sure is too many fish, well, I am likely gonna die trying, but I'm keeping them all in the tank as is, and we will see if I can pull it off.

This is a stubborn, irrational decision. Keep in mind that it may take more than a month for the effects to be seen. I feel the secret to a healthy reef tank is low stocking levels. Your corals and fish will be much happier with fewer fish.

I agree that it would be good if there was a database of fish with illnesses but not many books etc have these.

There is an on-line interactive guide to diagnosing illnesses in marine fish. I have lost the link, but I will try to find it.

Ernie

 

[Vixyswillie]

...my gut tells me... my gut tells me... my gut tells me... my gut tells me... and my gut tells me... The one thing you all agree on for sure is too many fish, well, I am likely gonna die trying, but I'm keeping them all in the tank as is, and we will see if I can pull it off.

I wish you would (a) be less concerned about your "gut," (b) be less concerned about trying to prove it "right," and (c) listen to the sensible advice that all of the above posters have provided for you. You'll quickly find that if there is any one thing that makes all of them crazy, it's this: people asking for help, offered experientially-based advice in return - and then going right ahead and doing the opposite, anyway. Please don't be one of them.