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SLUGZ

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Forgive me for I'm a newbie..

My current setup.. 55 gal FOWLR..

I'm using.. an undergravel filter right now, no bio/mech yet.. All though I have a fluval 403 that will be installed today (possibly) and will slowly take the UGF out..

I'm wondering if anyone has a FAQ or some sort of information that describes the differences between different filtration methods.. I see people using Sumps, mudd,refigums, wet/dry, hang-on back, skimmers etc..

I'm lost.. seems filtration is just as "controversial" as lighting.. =)


Reason I ask is I'm not sure the tank will support the bio load with just an undergravel filter..

more specifics:

Tank setup May 5, 2002.. 2 damsels survived cycle.. then added one at a time: 1 Coral Beauty 2 wks later 1 clown. 1 banded coral shrimp, 1 cleaner, couple hermits and a choc. chip star (i think) ..

any suggestions? Have only done 2 RO water changes and everything seems to look ok.. haven't installed my old-skool skimmer as I'm not sure I'm going to use it.. I do want this tank to be reef safe as once I'm comfortable with the setup I'll start to add some coral..

Thanks again..

Rich
 
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Anonymous

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Hey Slugz,

I guess your goal is eventually to keep corals in a full blown reef tank, right?
Couple of ideas for you.
Get rid of the undergravel. Don't get the Fluval.
Do some research on deep sand beds (DSBs). Build yourself a 3 or 4 inch bed of sand, and top it with an inch of live sand.

Pick yourself up about 50 pounds of live rock (LR) for the tank. The rule of thumb nowadays is about 1 or 1.5 pounds of rock per gallon.

The LR and the DSB with a good skimmer will be all the filtration you need.
 

tazdevil

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Slugz, first welcome, second, to bad you didn't find us first :(. Now, did your LFS (local fish shop) suggest the fluval or undergravel? Don't listen to them. Here's the problem with a U/G, canister, or W/D. They all produce loads of nitrate, which when your keeping reef corals, is your absolute enemy (of many).
The U/G, I wont even go into.

Canisters CAN be good, but they need constant cleaning (I think 1*week is recommended) to prevent them from putting out nitrate in large amounts.

The W/D is being phased out for reefkeeping due to the fact it is a high nitrate producer as well. The W/D's advantage over the other two is its unbelievable ability to handle copius amounts of waste, hence it is good for a F/O tank, and routine water changes help control the nitrate level (provided the new water is R/O,D/I).

As moe_K stated, the new trend is towards the Deep sand beds/Live rock combo's. It's not that other methods CANT work, its that they can be more troublesome, and less "natural" than this method. Protein skimming is something that really becomes a must IMHO when doing a reef tank (I'll get flamed for saying that). Just some suggestions, HTH, FWIW.
 

Jawbone

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Slugz here are the most common methods of filtration... I got all of this information from http://www.masla.com
A freind that builds tanks recommended the masla site awhile back and I pass it along whenever I can. I hope it helps

The Standard method.
Water exits the tank via an overflow system at the the top of the tank. It then passes through a pre-filter pad that traps out the large particles of debri and is plumbed downwards to the wet-dry filter.

The standard wet-dry filter utilizes bio-media, such as bio-balls, within the filter. The idea of the bio-balls is they offer a tremendous amount surface area for bacterias to adhere to, as well as, allow air ( oxygen ) down into the media. The increased amount of oxygen being exposed to, in combination with the thin sheets of organic laden water passing over, the bacterias allows for a far more effective bacteria. Keep in mind that is the amount of oxygen that allows the bacteria to oxidize waste. The wet-dry filter is extremely effective in converting ammonias ( NH4 ) and ntitrites ( NO2 ) into the lesser toxic form of nitrate ( NO3 ).

Aiding the filtration process is a protien skimmer or foam fractionator. Essentially a protien skimmer helps remove compounds from the water using heavy aeration to drive organics out of the water thus lessening what the bacterias need to deal with.

Within the tank, at the bottom, is a layer of sand or gravel approximately 1" deep. This represents the ocean floor. Placed upon the sand bottom is the live rock. The live rock forms the foundation that the living corals are placed upon.

The Berlin method

Supposedly based upon reef tank filtration used in Germany, this method decreases the effectiveness of biological filtration by relying solely on the bacterial populations contained on and within the live rock. There is no pre-filter pad within the overflow system and all the bio-balls in the wet-dry filter are removed. The wet-dry filter simply becomes the 'sump' or reservoir below the aquarium.

The thinking is that the prefilter pad and the wet-dry filter are too efficient. The pre-filter pad eventually becomes biologically active as it traps its debris and ultimately aids in converting wastes. The bio-balls, in combination with the increased exposure to air ( oxygen ) too effectively convert ammonias ( NH4 ) and ntitrites ( NO2 ) into the lesser toxic form of nitrate ( NO3 ). Both the pad and the bio-balls ultimately produce Nitrate, which in standard method leads to quicker and higher levels.

A greater emphasis is placed on the protien skimmer. Since the protien skimmer helps remove compounds from the water it lessens what the bacterias on the live rock need to deal with.

Within the tank, at the bottom, is NO sand or gravel. A bare-bottom tank harbors less biological activity, and is much easier to remove the debris that will settle there. Again a decrease in biological filtration produces a slower developement of Nitrate. The live rock, the foundation that the living corals are placed upon, is placed directly on the bottom of the tank.

The live rock by itself contains a tremenous amount of bacterias, and due to the lower amount of oxygen available to them they do NOT convert wastes as effectively. The end result is a very capable filter system, and one that does not generate Nitrates as quickly.

NOTE ; partially in lue of the sand at the bottom of the tank, which helps produce calcium, the Berlin method uses heavy amounts of Kalkwasser ( calcerous water ) for evaporative replacement.

The Algae Scrubber method

As opposed to a wet-dry filter Algal Turf Scrubbers grow ( turf ) algaes on screens that are in a seperate, but connected, system located outside or below the main aquarium. The basic concept is that the algaes remove nutrients from the water as their food source.

These screens should be scraped every 4-7 days as the algaes grow most rapidly when they are short. Harvesting the algaes regularly during their peak growth phase allows the nutrients, which are drawn up inside the algae, to be removed from the entire system.

The flow of the water across the screen(s) comes from the main tank and is returned to the tank That flow should be regulated, and if possible, alternated not just run from one end of the system to the other. This can be accomplished by a tilt tray or a dump bucket that creates a surge across the trays. The surge idea is to give the algae time to exchange gasses and absorb nutrients as well as provide light to all sides of the algae for maximum growth in a small area.

For these algaes to grow they need light. The lighting of an algae scrubber should be run the opposite to when the main tank lights are on. The reason for using a light cycle opposite from the main tank is to maintain stable pH, oxygen and carbon dioxide levels within in the system due to photosynthetic respiration. This prevents the wide range fluctuations found in most tanks. The type and output of the lighting will also affect the type of algae and growth rates. Nearly any type of intense light can be used, metal halide, VHO and HO flourescents, mercury vapor, halogen to name a few.

Within the tank, at the bottom, is a layer of sand or gravel approximately 1" deep. Placed upon the sand bottom is the live rock. The live rock forms the foundation that the living corals are placed upon.

The Jaubert method

The Jaubert method does NOT use an overflow nor does it have a reservior below the aquarium. Dr. Jaubert, of the Monaco Aquarium, promotes a variation of the Lee Chin Eng system which uses the 'natural' approach. The main variation is the introduction of a Plenum at the bottom of the tank.

A plenum is a gap or void space underneath the one to four inches of live sand at the bottom of the tank. Typically this void space is 1 inch deep and this area becomes anoxic, or an area low in oxygen. This anoxic area creates a 'ying-yang' enviroment where oxygen strarved organisms breakdown or remove components from the oxygen carrying organisms and components. The natural reduction of Nitrate ( NO3 ) in these systems is the direct result of a plenum as it generates a 'de-nitrification' process that robs the nitrate complex of its oxygen. Another benifit of the two opposing enviroments is the natural dissolution of calcium, magnesium, and strontium to natural levels within the aquarium.

The Jaubert system does not use a protien skimmer as the removal of organics via skimmer would decrease the effectiveness of the plenum. Additionally the only water movement within the tank is that of an airstone and its resulting rising bubbles.

Placed upon the sand bottom is the live rock. The live rock should be strategically positioned so that minimizes the amount of sand that it actually covers, as the covered spots would quickly cause dead areas within the sand that it sits upon.

The Live Sand Bed method

In a reef tank with a live sand bed ( set up properly ) the hobbyist is creating an enviroment that is more 'ecologically complete' or dynamic, certainly more like a true reef enviroment. As debri from the tank settle at the bottom of the tank there are a number of animals that feed on that debri, lets call them detrivores ( animals whose food source is the debri of other animals). These animals consist of crabs, shrimps, snails, starfish, sea cucumbers, and bottom-dwelling fish. Whether or not these animals actually consume or simply break up the debri into smaller particles, they are making that debri even smaller and easier for the next level of organisms to break it down further, physically and chemically.

The next level of 'micro-fauna' are the worms, bugs, and micro-scopic forms of life. These creatures help to break down the debri even further, but their greatest benifit is keeping the sand loose, or moving, and this allows oxygenated water to penetrate the sand bed. If one were to place a non-living bed of sand in a tank eventually it would become oxygen depleted. The results of this no-oxygen ( called anoxic or anaerobic, meaning low or without oxygen ) enviroment would be hyrodrogen sulfate ( that rotten egg smell ), and the bed would eventually 'clump' together and become solid. The worms, bugs, and micro-scopic life within the sand keep it loosely suspended which allows oxygen down into the sand thus assisting the aerobic ( meaning with oxygen ) bacteria in being able to continue to chemically convert the debri, biologically speaking.

There are many proponents of live sand beds. Their general consensis is that this bed of sand should be three to four inches deep, at the least. Some actually promote sand beds as deep as ten to twelve inches.

Placed upon the sand bottom is the live rock. The live rock forms the foundation that the living corals are placed upon. The overall benifit of live sand beds is a more complete 'ecologically' balanced system. Additionally, the processes of these small forms of life keeping the sand bed moving, is the breaking down of the substrate itself, thus various trace elements and calcium are released naturally back into the water.

The Mud / Eco method

If one were to take the basic concepts of all the methods above you would have the Mud System.

Envision removing all the bio-media from the sump below, place a layer of 'mud' across its bottom, illuminate this chamber with light and grow various algaes within it, you would have the Mud System. Granted that is the simplified version, so let me explain.

The layer of 'mud' becomes a low oxygen enviroment allowing various anoxic bacteria's to perform de-nitrification. The algaes harbor many small creatures who help break down the debris, and in combination with the debris this enviroment creates a fertile area for the plants to grow. The plants, via photosythesis, consume a large percentage of the nirtogen rich debris. The illumination, which is the opposite time frame of the main tank, provide the energy for the plants, as well as, minimize the pH and carbon dioxide fluctuations within the aquarium.

Within the tank, at the bottom, is a layer of sand. Placed upon the sand bottom is the live rock. The live rock forms the foundation that the living corals are placed upon
 
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Anonymous

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Jawbone, that was one hell of a post. 8O :D

Slugs, any more questions? :P

Louey
 
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Anonymous

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that was great. i copied it and saved it to my fish care folder. :D
 

reefsRcool

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nice 8O well those are your options i can't really expand on that beuty of a posting. what i will say is irrigardless of what you end up doing that undergravel HAS to go!!!! depending on your planned bioload you can actually get by with a lesser amount of live rock and use some of that tan colored manufactured rock that's name escapes me right now. every fish store carries it you know what i am talking about. eventually that stuff will colonise and become "live" all it takes is time. I am a huge fan of the whole deep sand bed/live rock/skimming method. live sand is great stuff(DO NOT fall for that LFS bagged live sand scam) start with some southdown $4 a bag and then seed it with a couple of cups reall live sand from an established tank. like the rock above it will eventually all turn out live much cheaper then shipping 90lb of sand half way round the world. good luck with your setup and please remember to keep asking questions this board is a wonderful resource.
 

SLUGZ

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THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!

Exactly what I was looking for.. At 1st I was going to have just fish and a friend suggested the UGF .. said more surface area... etc.. etc.. cost was a big factor at first..

After speaking with him tonight I'm going DSB slowly removing the UGF section at a time.. But what to do with the 50lbs of crushed coral I have now is the question.. =) Guess I could add the live sand on top?

Thanks again guys.. I've learned SOOO much by lurking this board in the last few days..

rich
 

danmhippo

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Mixing the fine sand and CC are not recommended. Eventually, fine sand will fall through and expose the CC on top, and that takes a long time. You will need the fine sand of at least 4" depth to develop the anaerobic (lack of oxygen) layer. It's within the bottom an inch or so of fine sand layer where the anaerobic bacteria helps breaking down the NO3. Using CC at bottom, a true oxygen less condition may not develop properly and the whole sandbed simply becomes a big nitrate factory and defeates setting them up in the first place.

Removing the UGF will make your tank very cloudy, you might as well remove UGF all at once and replace all CC with fine sand. At first, you will need the existing nitrifying bacteria to continue working for you until your new sand gets colonized by nitrifying bacteria. I would suggest you bag up your old CC in nylon stockings and either lay them on top of your new sand bed or throw them into the sump (or throw a bag or 2 into your fluval temporarily. Leave them in for at least 3 weeks and remove bags one by one until you feel comfortable.

Also since your water will be cloudy when you are removing UGF, you should be prepared to make large water change when you are doing the exchange. Be ready to change out 50% of old water on the same day.

Good luck.
 

reefsRcool

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you are just starting out, consider that CC as the first waste of money in the learning curve. toss it and start right you will be so glad you did. after the tanked is stocked and setup do you really want to have to rip it all apart? i would seriosly question the fish store you currently shop too, bet they are trying to get you to buy a seaclone :roll: this isn't a cheap hobby, but it isn't that bad when you do it right the first time. a good deal isn't so good when you have to through it away two months later eh.
 

oranje

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I'm baffled. Virtually all of the reefers I know use mainly crushed coral for their DSBs, myself included. Not the large diameter stuff, but certainly much larger than fine sand. I've seen many-an-excellent reef grow from a system like this, too.

Isn't the crushed coral useful for keeping up alkalinity? Or am I a fool?

Spill the beans.
 

danmhippo

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Basically, any calcium based gravel will contribute to keeping up with alkalinity buffer, that includes CC, southdown, and aragonite sand. But it's fine sand with a minimum of 4"+ that allow the anearobic zone to develop properly. Anaerobic zone is a layer of sand that is oxygen scarce. CC, being such a large grained gravel does not allow that condition to happen. Without the anaerobic bacteria breaking down NO3, the sand bed is simply a large nitrate factory.
 

Dewman

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I disagree with the notion that a DSB can't work if there is CC under it.
I have 1.5 inches of CC under 4 inches of sand, and I can watch the bacteria create bubbles which work their way out through the sand from under the CC.
I also disagree that CC will kill off all your sand fauna. I have TONS of spaghetti worms and bristle worms.

This may just be me, but I think if he lays down 4 inches of sand over the top, it will smother out any chance oxygen could have to reach the bottom layers.

My DSB has been set up this way since December and I have had no problems.
 

tazdevil

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I don't think it has killed the sand fauna, HOWEVER, sand sifting organisms (sand sifting gobies, sea cuke's etc.) will suffer from the sharp edges present with crushed coral. Dewman, do you have some sort of fine mesh or something between the CC and the sand (like a jaubert plenum, but with CC at the bottom instead of stagnant water)?
 

Dewman

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No, I have no separation :(

I didn't think about netting or anything. Wish I had now. I don't keep cukes but I keep 2 sand stars. Both have grown considerably since purchased in November. I understand the danger now though.

I guess I'll be fine though since I never plan on getting any cukes.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I have heard time and again, how CC will kill your sand infauna, I always thought they meant worms and pods and such... never could figure that one out... Now I know.
Thanks :D
 

reefsRcool

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while you could lay down sand over the CC my take on that is why do it? it will work but not nearly as effectivly inless you bury it under the same amount of sand as you would add to a bare tank. that just seems wasteful use of tank space especially in something so small.
 

SPC

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Posted by Dewman:
Sorry about the misunderstanding. I have heard time and again, how CC will kill your sand infauna, I always thought they meant worms and pods and such... never could figure that one out... Now I know.
Thanks

-It can kill some sand infauna if it has sharp edges. What we strive for with a DSB is deversity, the soft bodied animals which should be present in a DSB will be injured by substrate that has sharp edges. Now in your case if the sharp edges are below 4" then this should be in the anaerobic zone, not much concern for worms and bugs there.
Steve
 

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