Argg so confused DSB and FOWLR yes? No?...so confused..

[Dean]

I’m just about to add my LR to my 135g tank (90 LBS PLUS ~ 25 LBS of dead Fiji rock). I already have 4-5” of Southdown play sand in there. I was planning on getting a few detritivore kits plus some LS and doing the whole DSB thing. Last night I did some more reading and Im totally confused. (totally by accident I was doing a search for something else, a post on a different subject “DSB vs bare bottom” came up, caught my eye and you know the story 2 hours later&#8230

Here’s my concerns. I planning on having a tang, a large angel, a lionfish, a small eel, a harlequin tusk, a niger or a blue throat trigger and maybe a larger clownfish. Will these guys make the DSB inactive after a while? ie eat everything. I don’t want to be throwing $100+ worth of worms etc into my tank every three months. A DSB in the sump is not an option.

If I don’t do DSB can I leave 1-2” of southdown plus some larger sized stuff (not CC smaller) in there? Then what do I have to do? Vacuum it. Can you vacuum Southdown? is it too fine? And also will I have enough filtration.

Thanks so much
Dean

 

[JeremyR]

The sand will work fine in the fowlr, even with wrasses you can still usually find bugs and such in the tank at night if you shine a flashlight in. I'm a firm believer in live rock/sand for fish only tanks. The only other thing I didn't see you mention is a skimmer, I'm assuming you have one (hopefully a decent one with those fish).

 

[SPC]

I agree with Jeremy about using a DSB in a FO situatation.

Posted by Dean:

I planning on having a tang, a large angel, a lionfish, a small eel, a harlequin tusk, a niger or a blue throat trigger and maybe a larger clownfish.

-All in a 135? Jeremy, do you think this will work?
Steve

 

[M.E.Milz]

Yep. I use DSB's in FOWLR tanks and love them. I would, however, suggest burying an eggcrate shelf about 1" below the top of the DSB to keep the wrasses and the eeel from digging up the bottom 2/3 of the DSB. You can use pvc couplings or pipe to support the shelf.

 

[JeremyR]

I guess it depends on what kind of angel, tang, and what kind of lion. I've seen 15" volitan lions... the difference between a zebra dwarf lion & yellow tang vs. a volitans and naso is huge.

 

[Dean]

Right o' JermyR

Planning a dwaf lion and probably a kole tang and I have a life reef 36" skimmer.

Eggcrate I feel so stupid! I bought the eggcrate, cute the pvc pipe supports and at the last minute decided against it becasue I was told the eggcrate would impede the movemnt of the microfuanaI guess I can remove the top 1-2" of sand and still put it in

 

[dizzy]

Dean,

I don't think there are many diggers in the bunch you mentioned. While the tusk is a wrasse they don't ususally dig. I do see them blow on the top layer of sand. (triggers too) Provide a cave for your eel. The advice on the particular species from the families you selected was good. Maybe a small to medium angel would also be a better choice. Read up on the eels, triggers, tangs, angels before you make your selection.

 

[M.E.Milz]

Right o' JermyR

Planning a dwaf lion and probably a kole tang and I have a life reef 36" skimmer.

Eggcrate I feel so stupid! I bought the eggcrate, cute the pvc pipe supports and at the last minute decided against it becasue I was told the eggcrate would impede the movemnt of the microfuanaI guess I can remove the top 1-2" of sand and still put it in

Impeding microfauna?? Only if you cover the eggcrate with screen. Don't. Anything that needs to move through the lower layers of the DSB is way smaller than the eggcrate openings.

You may be able to bury the eggcrate without removing any sand. You can try by first putting all the pvc pipe supports in place (assuming that you are standing them on end so that you can push them into the sand to the botttom). Then place the eggcrate on top of the sand and try and push it throught the sand until it sits on the pvc supports. This would be easier if you use smaller pieces of eggcrate.

You may have to vibrate the eggcrate to get it to sink. Or (although this would be messy) you could use a power head to "liquify" the top layer of sand while you push the eggcrate downward.

 

[M.E.Milz]

Dean,

I don't think there are many diggers in the bunch you mentioned. While the tusk is a wrasse they don't ususally dig. I do see them blow on the top layer of sand. (triggers too) Provide a cave for your eel. The advice on the particular species from the families you selected was good. Maybe a small to medium angel would also be a better choice. Read up on the eels, triggers, tangs, angels before you make your selection.

My eels pushed the sand out from within their caves until they reached the eggcrate shelf. The fish tend to do the same thing.

 

[dizzy]

I like to put the rock in first and build a solid foundation. I then build the sand layer to a 3-4" depth in the areas around the rock. It seems to work pretty well for me. I have a couple of tanks that are throwbacks to the days when all the experts were recommending no substrate and just live rock. Some of these systems work good too. Ever been to Mike Paletta's house?

 

[fishfarmer]

I have a 4" DSB in a 120 gal FOWLR. It's over a year old and I see lots of worm trails and recently been seeing mounds of sand on the bed. I'm assuming it's some type of worm. I have a yellow and regal tang, lunare wrasse and a blue damsel. The tangs and wrasse seem to turn the upper layer but don't do much digging. My nitrates are still high 10 to 20ppm but that could because of other factors like crappy skimmer, overfeeding, etc.

 

[IcantTHINKofONE]

M.E. Millz, Interesting idea with the eggcrate. I wanna do it! I don't have even water in the tank yet but will this week. I was going to add and inch and a half of sand, then water, then live rock, then 2 and a half more inches of sand. Now how should I do it? Sand, eggcrete, rock, sand?

 

[M.E.Milz]

M.E. Millz, Interesting idea with the eggcrate. I wanna do it! I don't have even water in the tank yet but will this week. I was going to add and inch and a half of sand, then water, then live rock, then 2 and a half more inches of sand. Now how should I do it? Sand, eggcrete, rock, sand?

I would:

1) add 2/3 of sand

2) add pvc supports just long enough to reach top of the sand that is already in the tank.

3) lay eggcrate shelf on top of pvc supports (should be right at the top of the sand.

4) add the rest of the sand so as to bury the eggcrate.

5) pre-mix (and pre-heat) saltwater and then add to tank until the tank is maybe half full (the height of the water is not that important. If you are going to seed the sandbed with live sand, do it right after you get 1-2" of premixed saltwater above the sandbed.

6) start adding the live rock. Make sure that you push the rock into the sand so that it rests on the eggcrate (the eggcrate will keep the rock from sliding around).

Side note here, I like to use Tonga branch for the lower layer of rock along the back of the tank. Lean it against the back wall so that it is stable. Then add some blockier shaped Fiji along the middle of the tank in a spaced out arrangement. You can then create lots of caves and a very open rock structure by stacking additional rock (particularly plate-like pieces) between the Fiji and the Tonga. Use smaller pieces to fill in the gaps whereever it looks best.

7) continue to add pre-mixed saltwater as you add the live rock so as to always keep the live rock submerged.

8) finish filling the tank with the pre-mixed saltwater.

 

[M.E.Milz]

BTW, by using an eggcrate shelf, you only end up burying the live rock 1-2", depending on the depth of the sandbed and how deep you place the shelf. I have never had a problem pushing the live rock into the sand this distance. So you don't have to add the rock first. Adding the sand first is a lot less messy.

 

[IcantTHINKofONE]

M.E. Milz Any reason I should seed the sandbed as soon as the bed is submerged? I was gonna wait til after the tank cycled so I wouldn't lose all the critters.

 

[danmhippo]

M.E. Milz Any reason I should seed the sandbed as soon as the bed is submerged? I was gonna wait til after the tank cycled so I wouldn't lose all the critters.

That's just fine.

 

[M.E.Milz]

M.E. Milz Any reason I should seed the sandbed as soon as the bed is submerged? I was gonna wait til after the tank cycled so I wouldn't lose all the critters.

That's just fine.

I agree. BTW, depending on how cured the live rock is that you place in the tank, you may not end up with much of a cycle.

 

[Anonymous]

I’m just about to add my LR to my 135g tank (90 LBS PLUS ~ 25 LBS of dead Fiji rock). I already have 4-5” of Southdown play sand in there. I was planning on getting a few detritivore kits plus some LS and doing the whole DSB thing. Last night I did some more reading and Im totally confused. (totally by accident I was doing a search for something else, a post on a different subject “DSB vs bare bottom” came up, caught my eye and you know the story 2 hours later&#8230

Here’s my concerns. I planning on having a tang, a large angel, a lionfish, a small eel, a harlequin tusk, a niger or a blue throat trigger and maybe a larger clownfish. Will these guys make the DSB inactive after a while? ie eat everything. I don’t want to be throwing $100+ worth of worms etc into my tank every three months. A DSB in the sump is not an option.

If I don’t do DSB can I leave 1-2” of southdown plus some larger sized stuff (not CC smaller) in there? Then what do I have to do? Vacuum it. Can you vacuum Southdown? is it too fine? And also will I have enough filtration.

Thanks so much
Dean

dean-pardon my apparent ignorance, but could you please explain to me what all the &#----, references mean?

 

[Dean]

I have no idea I copied it from another place it must have brought something with it (actually they're subliminal messages "answer the post...ANSWER THE POST" :wink: )

 

[Anonymous]

my .02- even if the dsb would be impaired by the actions of the fish,larger grains of substrate always represent larger dirt traps, so my vote would be to not add crushed coral.
oolitic and related size substrates do a fairly good job at not letting large turd penetration occur easily, and a careful siphoning, occasionaly,can be done without removing much sand,if any(does take practice,and trigger nips,lion watching, don't help!)
also, i would think that you would get some good denitrification going on in at least some areas of the bed in spite of the digging, etc., of the wrasse, and the eel(depends on the type of eel) the main concern would be the worms that the tusk, triggers, and eel may hunt & eat.

i think that if you have good flow in the tank(and i'm assuming that, from a high turnover rate for your sump, given the heavy load,)the detritus will slowly but surely get 'kicked' up into the water column for skimmer removal.

one of the dangers is rock being toppled by triggers, eels, & tusks, so i would make sure they're securely placed.

the loss of any potential bacteria types your dsb loses, the more you'll probl'y get growing in the core of your lr, and vice versa, and your tank has more than enough places for adequate bio-processing with both.

btw, with the large amounts of food going in that system(messy fish!) you may end up with worms multiplying quickly enough to outpace predation!
:wink:
hope that makes sense-