I just fresh water dipped my fish to combat ich (Had all the parameters set correctly) and now that I put him back into the tank he's laying down next to the heater. He's still breathing (very rapidly), but not moving. Is this normal due to shock or is he in big trouble?
URGENT: Just fresh dipped my fish
- Thread starter R33f_$hark
- Start date
I like your positivism, but he died. 
He was a Coral Beauty Angel. I watched him during the FW dip and he seemed fine during it. He was even ok when I initially put him back in the salt water, than after 5 minutes he was just swimming around like he was drunk, and then just went to the bottom. Poor guy.
He was a Coral Beauty Angel. I watched him during the FW dip and he seemed fine during it. He was even ok when I initially put him back in the salt water, than after 5 minutes he was just swimming around like he was drunk, and then just went to the bottom. Poor guy.Very sorry to hear about your Coral Beauty. One of my favorite fish. Sounds like you did your best. Mind if I ask, how long it had ich/ how bad was it? Could it be that it was already too weak to survive the dip? Reason I ask is, it has been my experience, and the experience of friends, that a FW dip is a "last resort", and by the time it is done, the fish probably wouldn't have made it anyway. Seems the fish do better if it is done sooner, rather than later. Just wondering if this case would support that idea or not.
Well he started off with a just a few white spots, which I immediately recoginized as ich so I lowered the salinity just a hair in very slightly increased the temperature. I also at that time started treating with Garlic extract at meals. The spots went away but came back a week later. However this time, he got it bad. He was so covered he actually had a white tint to him! 8O This persisted for a few days so I decided to try the FW dip. As I said earlier I had him in there for approx. 7 minutes and monitored him the whole time, but my efforts were for nothing.
P.S. Thanks for your sympathy everyone.
P.S. Thanks for your sympathy everyone.
I've seen several threads recently about freshwater dips, and I'm sorry, I just can't hold my tongue any longer.
[rant]
:x
Imagine having a wart on your hand. You go to the doctor, they put a drop of liquid nitrogen on it to burn it off. Poof. Now imagine going to the doctor and instead they dunk your entire body into a vat of liquid nitrogen. Doesn't make sense, does it?
Dipping a fish in freshwater is, in my opinion, barbarous! Yes, your fish has some parasites, but rupturing the cysts and removing the parasites from the fish's body is NOT going to solve the problem, especially at the expense of severely stressing the fish. Fish don't really like going through osmotic shock, you know. All those parasitic cysts are now ruptured wounds that allow for fresh parasitic, bacterial, and other microbial entrance and infection points. Not to mention that now your fish is severely stressed, which weakens the immune system further. Oh, and thinking that waiting a few weeks will give the parasites time to die off in your tank? That's a load of malarky. The parasites are nearly *always* present in your system. It's like cold germs to people. The only reason we don't constantly catch colds? Our immune systems and physical condition normally make us stronger than the virus. You don't catch a cold by being cold, but often when you're outside without your coat on in wintertime, your body's defenses are weakened, allowing the germs a toehold.
Same deal with fish. When I see a fish with cryptocaryon or oodinium (there really is no such thing as 'ich' in saltwater), my first thought is not "let's dunk him in fresh water and try to rupture the cysts," my first thought is "how did this fish get sick in the first place." Look at causative factors--Is the tank overstocked? Has it cycled completely? Was another fish picking on him? Are there filtration or tank size issues? Is there stray voltage leaking into the tank? etc. As stated in the original poster's thread here, the fish got sick, was dipped and cleared of visible parasites (and further weakened), got reinfected, and was dipped again, at which point the fish was too weak to recover. The primary cause of the infection--the tank itself--was never addressed in any way.
I guess the moral of the whole thing is that rather than saying "how can I cure my fish," why not say "how can I improve conditions in my tank so that fish are not stressed to the point of picking up disease."
[/rant]
-John
[rant]
:x
Imagine having a wart on your hand. You go to the doctor, they put a drop of liquid nitrogen on it to burn it off. Poof. Now imagine going to the doctor and instead they dunk your entire body into a vat of liquid nitrogen. Doesn't make sense, does it?
Dipping a fish in freshwater is, in my opinion, barbarous! Yes, your fish has some parasites, but rupturing the cysts and removing the parasites from the fish's body is NOT going to solve the problem, especially at the expense of severely stressing the fish. Fish don't really like going through osmotic shock, you know. All those parasitic cysts are now ruptured wounds that allow for fresh parasitic, bacterial, and other microbial entrance and infection points. Not to mention that now your fish is severely stressed, which weakens the immune system further. Oh, and thinking that waiting a few weeks will give the parasites time to die off in your tank? That's a load of malarky. The parasites are nearly *always* present in your system. It's like cold germs to people. The only reason we don't constantly catch colds? Our immune systems and physical condition normally make us stronger than the virus. You don't catch a cold by being cold, but often when you're outside without your coat on in wintertime, your body's defenses are weakened, allowing the germs a toehold.
Same deal with fish. When I see a fish with cryptocaryon or oodinium (there really is no such thing as 'ich' in saltwater), my first thought is not "let's dunk him in fresh water and try to rupture the cysts," my first thought is "how did this fish get sick in the first place." Look at causative factors--Is the tank overstocked? Has it cycled completely? Was another fish picking on him? Are there filtration or tank size issues? Is there stray voltage leaking into the tank? etc. As stated in the original poster's thread here, the fish got sick, was dipped and cleared of visible parasites (and further weakened), got reinfected, and was dipped again, at which point the fish was too weak to recover. The primary cause of the infection--the tank itself--was never addressed in any way.
I guess the moral of the whole thing is that rather than saying "how can I cure my fish," why not say "how can I improve conditions in my tank so that fish are not stressed to the point of picking up disease."
[/rant]
-John
Actually acording to Martin Moe Jr fresh water dips dont rupture the cyst they actually just cause them to fall off, if the fresh water is then poured into the saltwater tank the cyst will live on.
To me it looks like he tried garlic feed and hyposalinity first, then the fresh water dip after the infection came back, not two dips.
But by definition isn't a cyst an outgrowth of some sort from the body? But even so, if it's just hanging on, it is creating a contact point with the fish, which when removed, is an area assumedly (is that even a word??) without protective slime coating, and where a parasite was at one point attached.Ben":3m1gn621 said:
Thanks for catching that. I must've been thinking about another thread. I in no way meant to flame the original poster anyway. I was just venting in general about freshwater dips. I really do think they do more harm than good, since you're taking an already sick and stressed fish and subjecting them to osmotic shock, which will cripple even a healthy fish within seconds or minutes. It just doesn't make sense to me. I mean, if the dip is used as a last resort, and the fish was presumably going to die anyway, why torture the poor thing? If you're going to do a fw dip to a healthy fish as an acclimation procedure, why stress a healthy fish and lower its immune system to the point where it could get sick? I just don't see any conditions where a fw dip is an advisable course of treatment. (Yes, I know that several 'experts' are pro-dipping. That's their opinion, I could never do it though.)
Far more than "several", Sharkky. Your analogy to a wart is not exactly a good one, either. Liken these cysts (the definition is different when one is speaking of a parasitic protozoan) to something like head lice, and a freshwater dip makes a lot more sense.
I have quite a bit to say in response to your "rant", but simply haven't got the time at the moment. I will say this, however: F/W dips are one of the most commonly used methods of control used, not only in commercial operations, but in the public aquarium with which I am most familiar.
Here are the mistakes that I can see were made:
1: Believing that raising the temp and lowering salinity "just a hair" would help alleviate the problem. In fact, raising the temperature simply speeds up the life cycle of the parasite. In using hyposalinity one must get to very low levels; from what I've gleaned you would have to take it down to about 1010 or lower to have an effect.
2: Believing that garlic (in extract or any other form) would act as a curative agent. Cupramine treatments are the best, most effective treatment for ich. (Sorry, Sharkky, but if we all use the word, and use it in agreement, then a rose is still a rose, yeah?)
3: Not immediately putting the fish into a q/t-hospital tank. That is the place to do treatments, including freshwater dips.
4: Waiting until the fish was so covered with cysts that it "had a white tint". This is clearly an advanced infection. Once it gets to that point the fish will likely be so far gone that with or without the dips and with copper he would have succumbed.
5: This 7 minute "standard"--where is this time derived from?
While I absolutely agree that prevention is the best cure, it doesn't preclude the fact that once infected a fish often needs treatment.
Sorry to cut this short, but I must.
I have quite a bit to say in response to your "rant", but simply haven't got the time at the moment. I will say this, however: F/W dips are one of the most commonly used methods of control used, not only in commercial operations, but in the public aquarium with which I am most familiar.
Here are the mistakes that I can see were made:
1: Believing that raising the temp and lowering salinity "just a hair" would help alleviate the problem. In fact, raising the temperature simply speeds up the life cycle of the parasite. In using hyposalinity one must get to very low levels; from what I've gleaned you would have to take it down to about 1010 or lower to have an effect.
2: Believing that garlic (in extract or any other form) would act as a curative agent. Cupramine treatments are the best, most effective treatment for ich. (Sorry, Sharkky, but if we all use the word, and use it in agreement, then a rose is still a rose, yeah?)
3: Not immediately putting the fish into a q/t-hospital tank. That is the place to do treatments, including freshwater dips.
4: Waiting until the fish was so covered with cysts that it "had a white tint". This is clearly an advanced infection. Once it gets to that point the fish will likely be so far gone that with or without the dips and with copper he would have succumbed.
5: This 7 minute "standard"--where is this time derived from?
While I absolutely agree that prevention is the best cure, it doesn't preclude the fact that once infected a fish often needs treatment.
Sorry to cut this short, but I must.
What kind of water did you use ? Was it heavily aerated first and then buffered to match the pH of your tank water ?
FW dips aren't all that helpful, but if done correctly won't generally kill the fish that quickly. If your fish started swimming around drunk right after being placed back (usually a few minutes to a few hours) its usually from improper dip procedures. They'll usually start flailing around sideways, upside down, etc. I usually see this after people use RO water that hasn't been properly aerated, or buffered incorrectly. The resulting fish after a 10 minute dip almost never make it past a few hours, just flailing away in the tank. Not sure if its the swim bladder that has been damaged or something else, but its definitely something along those lines.
Terry basically inquiried the same sort of thing as its usually a ph shock issue.
FW dips aren't all that helpful, but if done correctly won't generally kill the fish that quickly. If your fish started swimming around drunk right after being placed back (usually a few minutes to a few hours) its usually from improper dip procedures. They'll usually start flailing around sideways, upside down, etc. I usually see this after people use RO water that hasn't been properly aerated, or buffered incorrectly. The resulting fish after a 10 minute dip almost never make it past a few hours, just flailing away in the tank. Not sure if its the swim bladder that has been damaged or something else, but its definitely something along those lines.
Terry basically inquiried the same sort of thing as its usually a ph shock issue.
seamaiden":u0d3g8l2 said:
Hi Seamaiden....do you know anything about the medication called Ecolibrium at FishVet.com? I am seaching for meds that can be used in my Fish/Invert Tank.......I currently have no corals or shrooms. I want to see what is available that really works before i have any problems. Have Fun!
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