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Garry thomas

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Hello Dizzy

Have you noticed here that there always seems to be GT thats getting the sh*t. It really seems to be that a few guys in particular don't like the fact that somebody has more experience than they have themselves. Whether it be through a bigger tank or pure hard work. I had this sh*t on the Moorish Idol thread, about my tank didn't exist, pics to prove etc. well want size is yours Naesco? You seem to be doing lots of flogging let's see some pictures of your tank, this is the second time of asking. Don't be embarrased if it's smaller than mine.
 

Carol Reef

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Having been a guest on this forum for a little while, although I haven't set my tank up yet I have noticed that G.T who has a stunning tank and is well respected in the general reefkeeping circle which I have read in the British mags, seems to be getting a fair bit of harrassment. I don't think that he deserves this! His views obviously work for him and he is one person in particular I will be taking advice from, I have seen the pictures.
 

dizzy

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spc,

What I'm trying to tell you is that I'll listen to you more if I don't think your trying to preach to me. I quit the church because I didn't like being preached too. You need to try and find a way of getting your message out where it doesn't sound so much much like your standing on soap box.

Mitch
 
A

Anonymous

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This is a drag, I like the way reefing brings people from different countries together. People are saying some silly stuff here.
 

Minh Nguyen

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I hope no one think that I am giving GT any griefs other than civilly discuss our disagreement. I don't think the fact that GT is from across the Ocean have anything to do with how this discussion turn out.
BTW, GT, what's tank size have anything to do with anything? We disagree. That is that. I know of many medium and small tanks that are stunning. I think you are too keen on this 'mine is bigger than your' thing. Having a larger tank does not mean anything at all to me.
Minh Nguyen
 

Expos Forever

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I just won the lottery today! Yep! 50 million bucks! Went out out and bought myself a million UK gallon reef tank with a 500,000 gallon sump. Bought several hundered Moorish Idols, 1297 Yellow Tangs and a baby humpback wale. Instead of LR I used Goniopora for structure.Made up my saltwater with table salt.They have all been doing fine since lunch time... Since I now own the biggest tank on this board please refer all questions to me directly. Because as we all know cash equals intelligence.

I know this all seems horribly sarcastic but it sounds a lot like GT's argument.I've been in the hobby for pushing 3 years, not a very long time. I still consider myself a total newbie and am very hesitant giving advice on something as important as the well being of animals.If I do I will always pronounce myself on the cautious side, as I did in this thread. I am very suspicious of someone who claims to be an expert and gives advice after 9 months of keeping a fish, especiallly when this advice contradicts conventional wisdom...

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t ... highlight=

If somebody is looking for a "no problem" response they should go to their LFS. It seems to me that the people advocating reasonable stocking levels for fish and advising people to stay away from animals that are almost sure to die in our aquariums are the ones being attacked. Just my observation from lurking and reading old threads.No one has attacked me in my very limited posting on this board, but then I'm careful when giving advice. If GT feels like he's being attacked he should maybe consider qualifying his answers with a minimum tank size, etc... instead of talking about todger size. Not sure if a todger is an aquarium or a penis, at this point, but I don't think it really matters. They're both irrelevant to the discussion.We're talking about Alpha's tank, remember? To me the person who admits to knowing the least is probably the person who knows the most.
 

Minh Nguyen

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Garry thomas":226vebxy said:
all this talk about moorish idols being impossible to keep! what a load of crap, i'v had 3 in my reef tank for the last 9months I would say that they have to be in a reef tank with loads l/r algy, sponges etc .replicating there natural enviroment. i have also found that healthier specimens come from hawai. The idols get olong with my 8 yellow tangs, 1 emperour,1 sailfin , 1 regal , 1clown tang which is the only surgeon to show aggression to the idols.. so not impossible with the right conditions
GT...s wales
When somebody posted as the above, he must expect some "sh*t". He must also expect to show some prove of what he is talking about. Which country he is from does not have much impact here on the Internet.
Minh Nguyen
 

Garry thomas

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i'm having a good drunken laugh here thats excellant! money means nothing to having a sucsessfull reef tank! i wish i had some! and save the xpo where did you suddenly come from! your blood getting a bit of flack? and by the way 500.000 gal sumpMMM mmmmmmmm sounds like it could be the biggest........ i'll have to chew it over? Naesco where can i see your tank?
 

naesco

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So you want to know everything about me, my experience and my tank, eh!

Great! Do a search here under "naesco"

Now, put your pint down and go to sleep.

In the morning you can apologise to all my American fellow reefers for insulting them

Good Night GT
 

Carol Reef

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he seems to be taking a fair few insults from you, i'v noticed . i cant comment on what he knows or dont know? but surely his tank says more than words can. they give him an excellant write up in the mags in britain! so why not give him slack. i hope to have plenty of advice off him he seems willing to help when he's not put down? q+a is what i'm after. i will be happy if my tank half as nice. Carol
 

dgasmd

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You know, about 3 years ago I started to read about reef tanks because after having a freshwater tank for 12 years I wanted to make the switch. I started to read magazines, some books, and then I found reefcentral and reefs.org. I remember reading about great topics and was so amazed how people was so helpfull to others. They would give their opinion and it was only that, an opinion. Somehow in the last year or two those opinions have slowly become gospel and now they are rules written in stone. Most of the really helpful people have even abandoned this and other forums because of some of the newer people that have worked their way in trying to impose their way as the only way and trying to equate their methods as the only way of doing things. Some are still left trying to fight the tide, but I can see how tiring it is to argue on every single reply about every single thing. :cry:

I met a guy at work a few weeks ago that found out I was "into aquariums". He goes on to tell me how he has the same little 29 gal tank since starting medical school. It is a fish only tank. He has 6 yellow tangs, 2 percula clowns, and 4 damsels. I went on to tell him how this was a no no and he tells me that with his little bit of gravel which he syphons weekly, his undergravel filter, feeding the same flakes for over 6 years, bleaching the dead corals he has in the tank every 2 weeks, changing 25% of the water every month, and his manual top off with tap water whenever he gets around it every 4-5 days all at once he has been able to have all the above fish for little over 6 years!!! I though he was mental so I went to his house and saw it. Stuffed in there were all the fish, healthy, big, and fat. No sign of disease whatsoever!! I had nothing else to say to him.

People come up with this rules out of thin air based on a bad or good experience and they turn it into written in stone rules:
-x amount of watts per gall for lighting
-x amount of watts per gal of heating
-x amount f sand
-x amount of inches of fish
-78 degrees is better even all reefs in the world range from 84 to even 92 in shallow reefs in belize during the summer.
-400 watt halides for x depth and 250 for y depth when in natural reefs the measured light at 100 feet depth is equivalent to a 1000 halide 2 inches above the water and the tank being 1 foot deep according to scientific published data.
-No UV or ozone in reefs is good. It is a killer of the plankton the corals eat! Have you ever seen tank water under a microscope? It is 99% bad stuff and 1% beneficial stuff!!
-etc. etc. etc.

They are guidelines people not rules or laws of nature. It is also a load of crap,if I can borrow the words of someone here, to say that if one disagrees with the majority here they have to "grow a thick skin" to take the verbal abuse of others. What happened to disagreement in a civil manner? You also ahve to be a little open to the idea that the way things are done or thought of here in the states may no be the way the rest of the world sees it. Are we right and them wrong? No, just looking at it differently. Please don't give me that lame sentence of "its what is best for the animals". If it was, none of us would have them in a glass box in out living room despite of how big or well equipped they are!! We would have them in the ocean!!!

-Can moorish idols be kept in aquariums? YES. No by most people, but most people that have aquariums don't have the kind of set ups Mihn or GT or a lot of other people here have!
-Can you have 5 or 7 yellow tangs in a 100 gal tank? YES. Eventually they will outgrow their space because of their natural growth capacity, so it is not a choice to last 10 years!!
-Can you keep 200 or so fish in a 700 gal tank? YES. Go to Ron's Saltwater Heaven in PA and you'll see his display 700+ gal tank with a 300 gal sump with more corals and rock you'll ever care to see and over 300 fish Healthy and doing well. And yes, he does use ozone and UV. And yes, the tank has been set up for years too. Oh, and yes, it only lit by NO and VHO bulbs without a DSB and a refigium!! And finally yes, I ahve been there to see it myself!!
-etc etc etc.

Some people here need to take a chill pill and chase it with some heavy drugs!! :x It is a hobby. I am sure if we were all locked up in a room we would be talking much more nicely to each other and would take the time to explain out position or choice instead of trying to shove it down someone's throat in the worst possible way. Maybe it is the reason most of the good people in this and other boards don't even bother replying as much as they would like to. Not fear, but lack of time, energy, and reason to argue. Maybe that is also the reason now more than half the daily posts here are about everything else but how to keep a reef aquarium. To each its own I guess.

I am not directing this to anyone in particular, so please spare me the lame high school attempts to pick a fight with me over every particular sentence here. Take it for what is worth since it is only my opinion.
 

aquarist=broke

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Dr. Reef":3rxxatb9 said:

download.php
 

wombat1

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dimaggio brings up some good points about how we should treat all our knowledge as opinion, rather than "law" or "dogma". I don't think many people here say things like "X number of inches of fish per gallon or X number of lighting watts per gallon", because it varies so much with the setup and the animals being kept. I've heard MUCH more advice where folks ask to hear more about the particular setup before giving any advice out, or simply state what their particular experience is. However, I have to disagree with bringing up strictly anecdotal evidence like "I know a guy who told me...". 6 tangs, 2 clowns, and 4 damsels in a 29 gallon tank for 6 years? Sorry but I just don't buy it, even if he had a massive sump to handle all the waste those fish are producing. I met a guy once too, who had a lion, an angel, 2 clowns and a snowflake eel in a 40 gallon tank. Everything looked great when I saw it. When I saw him a year later, everything was dead and the tank had turtles in it. How are you sure he's had all the fish for 6 years?
 

tazdevil

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Dimaggio, its a matter of ethical treatment. Any time you put ethics/morality into the mix, you WILL get some extreme responses. Everyone has there own opinion of what is ethical and what is not. The responses GT has recieved to this point he asked for. He has to have known the enormous debates (specifically-tangs and tank size) that has gone on in this and other boards. It's simply a matter of people trying to give the best advice they know. This comes from experience, and mistakes that have already been made, that some members (albeit with some zest) are trying to prevent others from making. I personally believe tangs don't belong in anything less than 100+ (US) gallon tank. That is my PERSONAL opinion, not one I would try to force anyone to believe, but if someone asked me for advice on it, that's exactly what I would tell them.
 

dgasmd

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Wombat:

However, I have to disagree with bringing up strictly anecdotal evidence like "I know a guy who told me...". 6 tangs, 2 clowns, and 4 damsels in a 29 gallon tank for 6 years? Sorry but I just don't buy it, even if he had a massive sump to handle all the waste those fish are producing.

How are you sure he's had all the fish for 6 years?

Actually, he doesn't have a sump or a skimmer! He told me 2 years ago he was going to buy on insistance from one of the LFS a device called "a wet and dry filter" and he didn't becasue the fish had done fine for 4 years and he saw no reason to change what worked. :lol: Go figure. I have no reason to doubt about the length of the tank since he is a respectable physician at Johns Hopkins hospital. What the heck would this guy have to gain by lying about some trivial crap like this? By the way, I also was at his house yesterday and his tank looks the same as they did 4 months ago. I looked at it for a while and wondered why is it that it defies all common knowledge about this stuff as I know it. Beats me.

My example above that I am quoting is completely agreeing with you in terms of the anecdotal evidence. It was the most far off thing I had seen and that is why I brought it up. I was trying to ilustrate extremes of anecdotal information. Maybe I should have been more explicit.

Tazdevil:
Everyone has their own opinion of what is ethical and what is not.

I am so glad to see someone saying this because the way some people in this board talk is like we have only one stick to measure everybody. And it usually is theirs too!!

He has to have known the enormous debates (specifically-tangs and tank size) that has gone on in this and other boards.

That is one of my points exactly. Most people, specially the newer members looking for answers and opinions don't know that some of these questions have been asked numerous times in the past, sometimes a few times per week. You and I know that because we have been browsing BB for a while now. :wink: That is one of the reasons I tell people like they used to tell me at the begining to do a search about that topic for the past year. Read as much as possible, and then come up with a more specific and educated question that will only benefit you even more.
 

wombat1

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Well said dimaggio. Thanks for taking the time to consider what I was saying. As amateur scientists we have to treat every little bit of info, no matter how big someone's tank is or how high their post count is, with skepticism.
 
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dimaggio:

very well said :D

though i am guilty as charged, on occasion :wink:

yes -there is always more than one way to skin a cat.

my major concern is the following:

i've been a fw hobbyist since '71, and sw since '76. there are many 'rules' that i frequently 'bend', and fairly successfully,too.

however, my publicly offered opinions on fish/reef keeping are always offered from the tack of how they will be percieved by those new, or less experienced, to the issues i adress.

telling someone the way i sometimes do things,w/out them having the 'eye' i've developed over the years(fish sense? :wink: ), (that helps me to spot problems at an early stage, for example)can be worse, sometimes, than 'issuing a blanket rule'.

i will state for the record, that, imho experience counts, not tank size. :wink:

sometimes folks invite 'harsh' criticism due to their (admittedly percieved)
'attitude', and should be ready to deal with that when posting anything on a public forum-it's the nature of the beast.

to just say that MI's are not a problem to keep because one has kept a few for 9 months with admittedly poor success, it turns out-is abit dangerous, and irresponsible,with regards to how the info could be misconstrued by anyone who is unfamiliar with the issues involved in gary's methods 'behind the scenes'.

kinda like kalk's posts about cyanide collecting being unproven as dangerous in the industry forum :wink:

with all assertions comes a responsibility to the community to back those up with both proof, and explanations of all the caveats involved, if any.


having said that-i think that sometimes one's style of posting can also add fuel to the fire, because of the way it's percieved by the reader-though some of the posters here took this issue to the level of a pissing contest awfully quick, imho :wink:

i do agree with your bottom line, regardless of the fact that i think that alot of the assertions made by those 'ok-ing' the keeping of multiple tangs in the aforementioned situations is irresponsible, and not a good general tack to take.

can it be done? yes-your experience proves that it can-but 'luck' or the exception that proves the rule, should never be offered as the rule itself :wink:

(i am not trying to imply that that is what you are doing, btw)

respectfully yours :D
 

Vixyswillie

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It is a hobby. I am sure if we were all locked up in a room we would be talking much more nicely to each other and would take the time to explain out position or choice instead of trying to shove it down someone's throat in the worst possible way.

And here's the curious thing about that. When you run into someone in your daily life who turns out to be a fellow marine hobbyist, you're pretty excited about that. You share the details of your tanks, trade war stories, discuss tips, invite each other over to see the whole shebang, etc. Why is it so often the case that when somebody new introduces themselves or poses a question here, it immediately degenerates into a volley of arguments? Or a string of sarcastic comments?

Maybe it is the reason most of the good people in this and other boards don't even bother replying as much as they would like to. Not fear, but lack of time, energy, and reason to argue.

Bingo.
 

SPC

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Posted by dimaggio:
I met a guy at work a few weeks ago that found out I was "into aquariums". He goes on to tell me how he has the same little 29 gal tank since starting medical school. It is a fish only tank. He has 6 yellow tangs, 2 percula clowns, and 4 damsels. I went on to tell him how this was a no no and he tells me that with his little bit of gravel which he syphons weekly, his undergravel filter, feeding the same flakes for over 6 years, bleaching the dead corals he has in the tank every 2 weeks, changing 25% of the water every month, and his manual top off with tap water whenever he gets around it every 4-5 days all at once he has been able to have all the above fish for little over 6 years!!! I though he was mental so I went to his house and saw it. Stuffed in there were all the fish, healthy, big, and fat. No sign of disease whatsoever!! I had nothing else to say to him.

- :roll: This has to be the wildest "story" I have ever read on any board.

Maybe it is the reason most of the good people in this and other boards don't even bother replying as much as they would like to. Not fear, but lack of time, energy, and reason to argue.

-Most of the "good" people have told me they don't participate as much because they are burned out trying to convey ethical reef keeping and having people "attack" them when they do.

Posted by dizzy:
spc,

What I'm trying to tell you is that I'll listen to you more if I don't think your trying to preach to me. I quit the church because I didn't like being preached too. You need to try and find a way of getting your message out where it doesn't sound so much much like your standing on soap box.

-Do you have an example of where I was trying to preach to you (note: be sure to include your comments leading up to this "preaching").
Steve
 
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