Can bouts of "Ich" just come and go on their own i

[Anonymous]

I tend to disagree. Why am I not allowed to say so? Simply because my opinion is different? I haven't knocked it, or the folks who use it. I just said there are two schools of thought, including mine, and then offered other angles that, again in my opinion, should be closely addressed. When it comes to whether or not to use garlic, I don't think it's absolutely necessary, and I've stated my reasons fairly well. I have also covered other issues that may make fish susceptible, is that wrong as well?

This is very much like a kind of thought police. I haven't put anyone down, I haven't said, "Garlic is a bunch of BS", though it's now been directed my way. I do not think it is right. I have just as much right to speak my own mind based on my own experience and darn if it isn't backed up by others? I think that anyone who would do so to me simply because I disagree is plain wrong.

 

[Terry B]

I wrote the article in the current issue of Aquarium Fish Magazine. I would not call garlic "snake oil" as it has apparent benefits to marine fish health. However, everyone that I am aware of that has written about the subject agrees that garlic is not a consistently reliable treatment for ich. Even the originator (or at least the person that helped popularize using garlic for ich) will tell you that they use copper and/or hyposalinity to treat a full-blown infection rather than depending on garlic. Does it seem to stimulate the appetite of many fish? Yes it does. Is it useful for treating internal parasites such as nematodes? It most definitely is. Does garlic have some mild antibiotic and anti-fungal properties? This would be yes again. Has garlic proven to be as successful for treating ich as copper or hyposalinity (my treatment of choice)? No, garlic has not shown to be as effective at all. Would I feed my fish garlic if I were to have a mild case in my reef tank? Yes, I would use garlic while I was preparing a backup plan (hyposalinity). Garlic does seem to help in some instances, but this is most often with a light infection. The general consensus among people that have written about it is that it is a better preventative than a cure for ich. Kelli Jedlicki has told me personally that she agrees with this.
HTH,
Terry B

 

[Anonymous]

Sea maiden it is not very funny if you have ich in your reef.
You have the following options.
1. Ignore it and hope it will go away.
2. Risk putting chemicals in your tank like rid ich and greenex
3. Removing all of your fish into a QT for 30 days and treating with chemicals
4. Removing all of your fish into a QT for 30 days and use the hyposalinity approach
5. Treat with garlic extract soaked foods in your reef.

This list is incomplete.

6. Make sure the fish are fed all they can eat.
7. If there has been a event that has stressed the fish, take care of it.
8. Add a one of the other reef safe anti-ich products

8 of course, is sarcastic, but included to point out that many people will swear by their chosen anti -ich products as many people will swear by garlic.

I have read many reports on this board about success with using garlic extract and also lack of success but I have yet to read a post where a reefer has indicated that the garlic extract treatment regimen has done any harm to their fish or coral.

But not doing any harm shouldn't be the criteria to add something to your reef tank should it? Again, some of the other anti-ich products don't seem to harm anyones tank. Shouldn't the critera be 'does it do any good?'.
I have used garlic with great success. However, I have also simply made sure the infected fish got lots of food to great success. I am not at all convinced that the garlic actually helps.

The "snake oil" comments are made by those who are dated in their knowledge about the latest treatments for ich and those who have never tried it.

I have tried it, I doubt I would add it again, as with 'snake oils' I have tried that seemed to work, but I got the same results when under similar circumstances when not adding the 'snake oil'.

It also seems odd to me to think of garlic as a preventative for ich. How do you test for that? What about the people who use 'snake oils' as preventative for ich, who never get ich. How do you show that their preventative didn't work, or did work? Isn't this how superstitions get started?

Also, which kind of garlic do you add. Have any tests been done by anyone showing which is better?

Perhaps some of this info is in Terry's article, but I do not have access to that any time soon.

 

[Anonymous]

This is more along the lines of real discussion I had assumed would be happening. I'm glad to see that I'm not going to be continually chastised for speaking on my mind(set) and my experience.

I happen to believe very strongly that the larger issues I'd mentioned to the original poster are extremely important. Maybe that's because I believe that if all these other needs are met, eliminating stress included, you'll have the kind of experiences I've had--little to no trouble with this organism.

I have to admit, on one hand I am surprised at the attitude of some posters (on this subject). But on the other it is clear why this site has earned the kind of reputation it has for "tang police" and flaming. I would think that many would agree that there is as much art to this thing we endeavor to do as science, wouldn't "you" (collective you)? Of course, this doesn't preclude the necessity of hard science, either.

 

[anthem]

Anthem, while I haven't the time to link you to such proof, yes, copper treatments are the only proven, effective cure for ich. It is the standard at the aquarium to copper almost all fish upon arrival into q/t, where the standard is a minimum of one month (30 days).

seamaiden, copper is highly effective in the treatment of cryptocaryon (at least ionic coppers or ionic copper compounds, can't say the same for the most popular chelated brand). Hyposalinity shouldn't be discounted either. It has been proven (in a scientific setting). I would look at some of the research by Colorni and others. I'm sitting in O'hare airport so I can't really give you the citations off the top of my head, but its pretty easily found. Most of the scientific testing has been done on food fishes, but they generally apply to reef fishes the same (bony fishes). It is taken relatively well by almost all fish with few exceptions and works not only on cryptocaryon, but also for gill flukes (which were/are quite common the last few years).

Now, in terms of two 10 gallon tanks, I think agree with you that that definitely does not make a test. We're talking a necessity of serious numbers of fish to go through with a control as well. Are we absolutely certain that the fish survived because of the garlic of in spite of it ? Also, everyone who is a proponent of garlic pretty much discounts heavily infected fish. If it is truly 'effective' it should work regardless of infection level.

Someone else made the point about putting specimens in 10 gallon tanks being more stressful than leaving them in there. Yes, you're right. But that also means that you aren't adequately prepared for the specimens that you need to treat. A adequate quarantine/hospital system means that you are able to quarantine and treat fish in a non-stressful setting. I don't see seaworld trying to put shamu in a 10 gallon tank either. . . . Your quarantine tank size is the size necessary to accomplish what you need to do.

 

[Anonymous]

Anthem, on these points I don't think we can agree more. I didn't bring up hyposalinity because the discussion/argument had evolved into how to treat an animal in situ, which isn't practicable if the system is also holding inverts.

I also agree with your comments regarding q/t tank size itself. At the aquarium we have several q/t sys's, the largest being a "chain" of three 3,000gal tubs on the same filtration. The smallest q/t we have (i don't think I can include the ten gallon my super's using to rear his pipefish fry) is what most hobbyists would consider a very large home tank, I believe it's 100gals-150gals.

The animals that we've learned can never be coppered are the frogfishes. They tolerate it not at all. However, this is only true of the froggies and not all fishes from (IIRC--god, I hope I'm spelling this correctly :roll: ) Scorpaenidae are included in this.

 

[Terry B]

I don't personally see any reason to use copper for treating ich anymore when hyposalinity is every bit as effective and it has many advantages over copper. Having said that, if you must use copper then try Cupramine by Seachem. It is the only copper that I have found copper sensitive fish such as mandarins, puffers, dwarf angels and lionfish don't seem to mind and it is effective.
Terry B