What's wrong with my Vlamingii Tang??
- Thread starter brians
- Start date
Looks to me like it's mostly confined to his head area. As a guess, probably damage during handling or trying to get away from a perceived threat and running into live rock.
I don't know about recommended treatments that will work, someone with more experience will have to suggest that. All I can say is to make sure your water parameters are ok, that plenty of fresh foods are available and that they are of a perferred or natural type if possible. Try to reduce any stress and attempting to net or handle the fish might do more harm than good.
Another thing, you might look at the fish at night with a red light. See if you can see a parasite on him.
Some more info might help the experienced keepers give you a better answer. Water parameters, did you quarantine or not, do you know the source where the fish was obtained?
Good Luck :!:
I don't know about recommended treatments that will work, someone with more experience will have to suggest that. All I can say is to make sure your water parameters are ok, that plenty of fresh foods are available and that they are of a perferred or natural type if possible. Try to reduce any stress and attempting to net or handle the fish might do more harm than good.
Another thing, you might look at the fish at night with a red light. See if you can see a parasite on him.
Some more info might help the experienced keepers give you a better answer. Water parameters, did you quarantine or not, do you know the source where the fish was obtained?
Good Luck :!:
It could be a bacterial infection intensified by stress.
What size tank is that?
I'm quite sure it is WAY too small for that tang to feel comfortable.
When fish feel confined, they become stressed and produce hormones that can weaken them to infection.
If you can't find a better home for that fish he will be dead within a few weeks.
John
What size tank is that?
I'm quite sure it is WAY too small for that tang to feel comfortable.
When fish feel confined, they become stressed and produce hormones that can weaken them to infection.
If you can't find a better home for that fish he will be dead within a few weeks.
John
To answer the questions so far.
tank is 140 gal
Water parameters are:
temp - 76-79
specific gravity - 1.0245
ph - 8.30-8.45
dkh - 9
ammonia - 0
nittite - 0
nitrate - 0
phosphate - .25
calcium - 450
supliments used are:
coralvite - 5ml 3x week
tech-i - 5 ml 3x week
kent kalkwasser - make-up water = 1 tsp/gallon 1/2 gallon per day
pro-buffer - will start today to increase dkh and stabilize ph shift
phosgard - just started yesterday to reduce phosphate
erythromycin - added yesterday to reduce cyanobacteria growth
food provided:
hikari - frozen brine shrimp
dried seaweed
frozen bio-plankton
livestock:
1 vlamingii tank
1 yellow eye tang
2 true percula clowns
1 pagoda cup coral
1 galaxia
1 toadstool
1 spagetti leather
3 xenia frags
1 maze brain
1 red lobophilia
~12 plus varied mushrooms
~20 varied snails
Like I said I've had this fish about a month. The only real problem with the tank has been the cyanobacteria problem that started about 2 weeks ago. I'm thinking this might be related? The fish seemed extremely happy up until a week ago when the first wound surfaced. Since then it has gotten progressivly worse. He would actually come up to the top of the tank and grab pieces of seaweed from my hand when i was feeding.
tank is 140 gal
Water parameters are:
temp - 76-79
specific gravity - 1.0245
ph - 8.30-8.45
dkh - 9
ammonia - 0
nittite - 0
nitrate - 0
phosphate - .25
calcium - 450
supliments used are:
coralvite - 5ml 3x week
tech-i - 5 ml 3x week
kent kalkwasser - make-up water = 1 tsp/gallon 1/2 gallon per day
pro-buffer - will start today to increase dkh and stabilize ph shift
phosgard - just started yesterday to reduce phosphate
erythromycin - added yesterday to reduce cyanobacteria growth
food provided:
hikari - frozen brine shrimp
dried seaweed
frozen bio-plankton
livestock:
1 vlamingii tank
1 yellow eye tang
2 true percula clowns
1 pagoda cup coral
1 galaxia
1 toadstool
1 spagetti leather
3 xenia frags
1 maze brain
1 red lobophilia
~12 plus varied mushrooms
~20 varied snails
Like I said I've had this fish about a month. The only real problem with the tank has been the cyanobacteria problem that started about 2 weeks ago. I'm thinking this might be related? The fish seemed extremely happy up until a week ago when the first wound surfaced. Since then it has gotten progressivly worse. He would actually come up to the top of the tank and grab pieces of seaweed from my hand when i was feeding.
I don't have any experience with this personally, but could this be what head and lateral line disease looks like initially? Its cause is attributed to a variety of things including poor water quality, poor nutrition, stress, and stray voltage.
Hopefully someone with better experience on this will weigh in monday. Ultimately, your tank won't be large enough for that fish but at the moment I doubt that tank size is whats causing the problem.
Hopefully someone with better experience on this will weigh in monday. Ultimately, your tank won't be large enough for that fish but at the moment I doubt that tank size is whats causing the problem.
Wrong areas for HLLE. This fish really looks as though he's injuring and reinjuring a specific area, kinda like a horse that "worries" itself.
Please don't take this wrong, but you've had the fish a month, and it's in your display, which means that you've completely ignored sound quarantine protocol. You really must get a q/t and use it, 30 days minimum, for ALL new additions. This fish does indeed appear to be too big for the tank, if that's a 140 then that fish has to be almost dinner plate size. If this were my fish, I would remove him to a large q/t tank, start pumping vitamins, noori, romaine, and krill into him--whatever he'll take. Then I would use Spectrogram (broad spectrum gram positive & negative antibiotic) in the q/t.
Those phosphate readings explain the diatomaceous/cyano growth I can see on the substrate. Stop the erythromcycin, it won't help you much. Do a large water change instead, keep the Phosgaurd.
Please don't take this wrong, but you've had the fish a month, and it's in your display, which means that you've completely ignored sound quarantine protocol. You really must get a q/t and use it, 30 days minimum, for ALL new additions. This fish does indeed appear to be too big for the tank, if that's a 140 then that fish has to be almost dinner plate size. If this were my fish, I would remove him to a large q/t tank, start pumping vitamins, noori, romaine, and krill into him--whatever he'll take. Then I would use Spectrogram (broad spectrum gram positive & negative antibiotic) in the q/t.
Those phosphate readings explain the diatomaceous/cyano growth I can see on the substrate. Stop the erythromcycin, it won't help you much. Do a large water change instead, keep the Phosgaurd.
A couple more points:
1. Cyanobacterial growth is a sign of high DOCs, not phosphate.
Your skimmer is probably not up to the job or you have stocked the tank WAY too fast. When was is started?
2. Vlamingii tangs are open water planktivores that grow to 2 FEET in length. No way that fish can live in a 140 comfortably.
3. Stop using the coralvite and the Tech-I. They are not needed and serve as algae food.
4. You may get lucky and the erythromycin used for cyano growth MAY help the tangs' infection. That would be great, but would still not address the root cause of EITHER the cyano bloom or the tangs infection.
John
1. Cyanobacterial growth is a sign of high DOCs, not phosphate.
Your skimmer is probably not up to the job or you have stocked the tank WAY too fast. When was is started?
2. Vlamingii tangs are open water planktivores that grow to 2 FEET in length. No way that fish can live in a 140 comfortably.
3. Stop using the coralvite and the Tech-I. They are not needed and serve as algae food.
4. You may get lucky and the erythromycin used for cyano growth MAY help the tangs' infection. That would be great, but would still not address the root cause of EITHER the cyano bloom or the tangs infection.
John
It looks like scraping injury to me. Vlamingis are very powerful swimmers,and when spooked can really move.. I'd agree the tank is probably too small to keep him long term (looks like a 6-8" size to me). We have a pair of vlamingis in our 350 low tank (8' long at longest and 5' wide at widest). They can cross it in about 2 seconds. Hadn't intended to add a 2nd, but someone brought one in that had been in a 125 and was getting too large.
Having said all that, I seriously doubt erythromycin will do anything, even in quarantine. Rotten drug in saltwater, even before everyone overused it in the fish industry.. stuff rarely even works in freshwater.
As far as the quarantine.. that's really tough with a fish that size. I can't see quarantining it in anything less than 75 gallons or it will just bop itself on things. Cleaner shrimp would probably be it's best friend right now IMO if a large Q tank is not available.
This is one of my favorite fish. Amazing personality, they will all eat from your hand like a dog, they don't bug anyone... but they get BIG. They used to be pretty rare in the hobby but once the exporters figured out which juvy "unicorn" was the vlamingi, they have been imported in larger numbers and sold to alot of people who aren't prepared to care for such a big fish.
Having said all that, I seriously doubt erythromycin will do anything, even in quarantine. Rotten drug in saltwater, even before everyone overused it in the fish industry.. stuff rarely even works in freshwater.
As far as the quarantine.. that's really tough with a fish that size. I can't see quarantining it in anything less than 75 gallons or it will just bop itself on things. Cleaner shrimp would probably be it's best friend right now IMO if a large Q tank is not available.
This is one of my favorite fish. Amazing personality, they will all eat from your hand like a dog, they don't bug anyone... but they get BIG. They used to be pretty rare in the hobby but once the exporters figured out which juvy "unicorn" was the vlamingi, they have been imported in larger numbers and sold to alot of people who aren't prepared to care for such a big fish.
I also think that it is infected injury. You should dim your light at the end of the day rather than abruptly turn it off. You may want to have 20-30 watt night light turn on for about 15 minutes when the main light turn out. Fish will not bang into rock, anemone or jump out of the tank as the light turn out at the end of the day. Skittish fish like this Vlamingis tang will really bang into rock when the get scare. I also think it is or going to be too big for your tank.
Good luck.
BTW, Your clownfish in the first picture) are Ocellaris not Percula.
Good luck.
BTW, Your clownfish in the first picture) are Ocellaris not Percula.
Thanks for all the replies. As I am sure some of you have guessed I'm fairly new to reefing and have made my share of mistakes. Like letting an LFS slip me Ocellaris not Percula clowns. It's not that I chose to completely ignore containment, I simply only have a 10 gallon containment tank which this fish was FAR too big for. It is actually right at 5" long. I knew when I bought it that it would have to go straight in my main tank. The LFS that I bought it from had it in a display tank there for some time and still has it's tankmate of the same size, which is doing fine in a 45 gallon.
I knew that this fish would grow to be rather large. But like most all of us, I will be moving it into a larger tank (215+) in the near future and didn't expect the fish to grow too big before then. It does dart around the tank very rapidly at times and has managed to squeeze itself in places between live rocks that are very narrow.
The erythromycin has done wonders on the cyano in just 36 hours but I doubt it has helped the vlamingii much plus it has pretty much shutdown my skimmer so it will have to work twice as hard to catch up.
Tomorrow I am going to give the vlamingii a freshwater dip. Then I'm going to get a couple of cleaner shrimp and put them in the quarantine tank with the vlamingii and see how things go. If that dosen't work out I'll try something more drastic like penicillin or melafix (any experience with either?).
I've heard so many contradicting stories on the cause of cyanobacteria. Phosphate, DOC, low flow, high flow, etc... I don't know what to believe. One person tells me to use phosgard one says it will destroy leathers? I am currently using about a half dose of phosgard to slowly reduce the phospate level while watching the rest of the inhabitants. As for my skimmer I have a new PM 626 that has only been on the tank about 4 1/2 weeks and is doing a MUCH better job then my previous skimmer which was undersized for this tank probably leading to all the bacteria problems.
Anyway thanks again for all the advice. I'll keep you all updated..
I knew that this fish would grow to be rather large. But like most all of us, I will be moving it into a larger tank (215+) in the near future and didn't expect the fish to grow too big before then. It does dart around the tank very rapidly at times and has managed to squeeze itself in places between live rocks that are very narrow.
The erythromycin has done wonders on the cyano in just 36 hours but I doubt it has helped the vlamingii much plus it has pretty much shutdown my skimmer so it will have to work twice as hard to catch up.
Tomorrow I am going to give the vlamingii a freshwater dip. Then I'm going to get a couple of cleaner shrimp and put them in the quarantine tank with the vlamingii and see how things go. If that dosen't work out I'll try something more drastic like penicillin or melafix (any experience with either?).
I've heard so many contradicting stories on the cause of cyanobacteria. Phosphate, DOC, low flow, high flow, etc... I don't know what to believe. One person tells me to use phosgard one says it will destroy leathers? I am currently using about a half dose of phosgard to slowly reduce the phospate level while watching the rest of the inhabitants. As for my skimmer I have a new PM 626 that has only been on the tank about 4 1/2 weeks and is doing a MUCH better job then my previous skimmer which was undersized for this tank probably leading to all the bacteria problems.
Anyway thanks again for all the advice. I'll keep you all updated..
"The LFS that I bought it from had it in a display tank there for some time and still has it's tankmate of the same size, which is doing fine in a 45 gallon.
What do you call doing fine?
Staying alive?
I know you don't want to hear it but you should take that fish and find a public aquarium to house it.
You WILL NOT have success with that fish. By that I mean that fish will not be alive in three years in your system.
Success for a fish like the vlamingii should be considered an aquarium lifespan of at least 10+ years.
If your LFS tells you those fish do well in 45 gallon tanks, you need to find another LFS.
John
What do you call doing fine?
Staying alive?
I know you don't want to hear it but you should take that fish and find a public aquarium to house it.
You WILL NOT have success with that fish. By that I mean that fish will not be alive in three years in your system.
Success for a fish like the vlamingii should be considered an aquarium lifespan of at least 10+ years.
If your LFS tells you those fish do well in 45 gallon tanks, you need to find another LFS.
John
I agree this is a fish that probably shouldn't have been purchased, but he has the fish now, so it's probably best to try to help the fish rather than continue to dwell on the large tang too small tank thing.
Freshwater dip is not going to help, is stressful to the fish.. please don't do it. Go straight to the cleaner shrimp. If your Q tank is only 10 gallons, don't try treating the fish in there... you need something larger.
Some public aquariums will take fish, some won't. I donated a couple of large squirrel fish to a public aquarium once, but I knew one of the guys that worked there and he wanted the fish. Also, not to condone any type of tank size, but there is a very well known fish guy here & on RC that has a vlamingi in a 125ish tank for like 7 years. On fish like this, I feel that rather than taking the tang police the world is going to end you evil person you must get rid of this fish stance, it would be more constructive if we tried to educate, made our point, and moved on.
Freshwater dip is not going to help, is stressful to the fish.. please don't do it. Go straight to the cleaner shrimp. If your Q tank is only 10 gallons, don't try treating the fish in there... you need something larger.
Some public aquariums will take fish, some won't. I donated a couple of large squirrel fish to a public aquarium once, but I knew one of the guys that worked there and he wanted the fish. Also, not to condone any type of tank size, but there is a very well known fish guy here & on RC that has a vlamingi in a 125ish tank for like 7 years. On fish like this, I feel that rather than taking the tang police the world is going to end you evil person you must get rid of this fish stance, it would be more constructive if we tried to educate, made our point, and moved on.
I am NOT the tang police.
My point was that the small tank was causing the stress to the fish and is the root cause of his illness.
A QT treatment in a 55 gallon tank may cure the infection.
If that is the route chosen, 5-10 days treatment with maracyn II at double strength or 5 days nitrofurazone would be the best antibiotics to use.
I just feel another another infection is soon to follow because of constant stress.
The guy with the vlamingii in a 125 for 7 years probably purchased the fish as a small juvenile fish (2-3") , not a 7" sub-adult.
I guess I'll bug out on this one.
Please post an update as to the tangs final disposition.
John
My point was that the small tank was causing the stress to the fish and is the root cause of his illness.
A QT treatment in a 55 gallon tank may cure the infection.
If that is the route chosen, 5-10 days treatment with maracyn II at double strength or 5 days nitrofurazone would be the best antibiotics to use.
I just feel another another infection is soon to follow because of constant stress.
The guy with the vlamingii in a 125 for 7 years probably purchased the fish as a small juvenile fish (2-3") , not a 7" sub-adult.
I guess I'll bug out on this one.
Please post an update as to the tangs final disposition.
John
Thank you, Jeremy, for reining this back in. What brians needs is HELP, not admonishments. That will help neither him nor the fish.
Ok, I'm going to give you another direction to go in, brians. I'd like you to check out http://www.wetwebmedia.com do a search in the library, as well as the aquatic sciences section. There is also a forum/board to post to http://www.wetwebfotos.com/talk You can also ask the crew a question, we try to answer queries the day they come in. One of the folks who might be answering your question could be Bob (Fenner) himself or Anthony Calfo. Both, in my opinion, are trusted and well-regarding names in the industry.
While I agree that the f/w dip won't help what is, more than likely, an injury, it's not such a terrible thing. However, for this particular situation there's no need. The cleaners will help (assuming this fish feels comfortable with them) keep the wound clean.
I will recommend Spectrogram for an antibiotic. This is because this is what the LBAOP uses for hospital, including with certain inverts (sea stars, for instance..who'da thunk, eh?). Other than Spectrogram, Melafix would be the my own next choice.
What you need to address is avoiding further injury once you put the fish back into the tank. What I'm thinking is that he may need more free swimming space. You might need to either rearrange the live rock or remove some. I would treat this animal like a Naso Tang, LOTS of free swimming space to avoid them banging themselves.
Also, nix the brine shrimp for all the fish. It is nutritionally deficit, and they'll all do better with something like krill (soaked in a supplement like Selcon a few times a week is really good), mysis shrimp, and free feed the noori and romaine lettuce. They'll poop like the dickens (yeah, I know) but it really helps them physically AND psychologically. Tangs are a lot like horses and they have evolved to graze all day long. The closer you can come to providing that for them, the better they'll do in the long run.
Have you got a refugium set up by any chance? If so, get some Caulerpa or other tasty macro for them to feast on. Grow it in the 'fuge, then harvest like hay for the horses.
As I'm thinking about it, I'm going to strongly suggest you make at least one third of the tank completely open, with the entire front open for free swimming. This may be helpful in helping him avoid reinjuring himself. Again, if you have a 'fuge, you can put the live rock in there, you'll still get many of the benefits of the l/r, while providing the tang as much free space as possible. Another suggestion--if he seems to be startled easily, cover up a portion of the tank, to give him a chance to become accustomed to movement, and to hide behind should he feel so inclined.
Please visit wetweb AND our library ( http://www.reefs.org/library ) for more information.
And DO let us know if this helps!
Ok, I'm going to give you another direction to go in, brians. I'd like you to check out http://www.wetwebmedia.com do a search in the library, as well as the aquatic sciences section. There is also a forum/board to post to http://www.wetwebfotos.com/talk You can also ask the crew a question, we try to answer queries the day they come in. One of the folks who might be answering your question could be Bob (Fenner) himself or Anthony Calfo. Both, in my opinion, are trusted and well-regarding names in the industry.
While I agree that the f/w dip won't help what is, more than likely, an injury, it's not such a terrible thing. However, for this particular situation there's no need. The cleaners will help (assuming this fish feels comfortable with them) keep the wound clean.
I will recommend Spectrogram for an antibiotic. This is because this is what the LBAOP uses for hospital, including with certain inverts (sea stars, for instance..who'da thunk, eh?). Other than Spectrogram, Melafix would be the my own next choice.
What you need to address is avoiding further injury once you put the fish back into the tank. What I'm thinking is that he may need more free swimming space. You might need to either rearrange the live rock or remove some. I would treat this animal like a Naso Tang, LOTS of free swimming space to avoid them banging themselves.
Also, nix the brine shrimp for all the fish. It is nutritionally deficit, and they'll all do better with something like krill (soaked in a supplement like Selcon a few times a week is really good), mysis shrimp, and free feed the noori and romaine lettuce. They'll poop like the dickens (yeah, I know) but it really helps them physically AND psychologically. Tangs are a lot like horses and they have evolved to graze all day long. The closer you can come to providing that for them, the better they'll do in the long run.
Have you got a refugium set up by any chance? If so, get some Caulerpa or other tasty macro for them to feast on. Grow it in the 'fuge, then harvest like hay for the horses.
As I'm thinking about it, I'm going to strongly suggest you make at least one third of the tank completely open, with the entire front open for free swimming. This may be helpful in helping him avoid reinjuring himself. Again, if you have a 'fuge, you can put the live rock in there, you'll still get many of the benefits of the l/r, while providing the tang as much free space as possible. Another suggestion--if he seems to be startled easily, cover up a portion of the tank, to give him a chance to become accustomed to movement, and to hide behind should he feel so inclined.
Please visit wetweb AND our library ( http://www.reefs.org/library ) for more information.
And DO let us know if this helps!
my $0.02
e-mycin can be extremely effective at killing off cyano present in a tank-i've used it often, recommended it to customers, with a 100% effectiveness rate
the dosage should be 250mg/every 10 gal.net of water volume-followed by a repeat dose in 48 hrs-left in the tank for at least a week
HOWEVER-remember the following:
the e-mycin will not eliminate the cause of the cyano-
if you do not follow the treatment to the end, and any cyano remains-the e-mycin will probably be inneffective the next time you treat-
e-mycin interferes w/some of the metabolic pathways in the cells of the cyano-it's a slow killer-and takes some time to work
killing off the cyano, and using the e-mycin-will actually leave even more nutrients in the system to feed more 'nuisance algaes',- both from the breakdown of the e-mycin, and the rerelease of the nutrients bound up in the cyano-a series of large water changes is a must after treatment
e-mycin is a very effective foaming agent for a skimmer, too-shut it off, or it will drain your tank from over skimming
both the presence of phosphates, and doc's, kind of go hand in hand-they are both waste products-if you have one at a high level-it's safe to say the other is also high-i'd treat them both as a group, as far as their contribution to nuisance algae growth(including cyano)
regarding antibiotics in general:
they are very poorly absorbed by fish through water-they may be effective on supperficial wounds-to a degree, but the best method of administeration is via their food-to get the antibiotic in the gut-try soaking some food in some antibiotic mixed w/water
i've used phosguard by seachem repeatedly, and so have many of my former customers-none of us ever had a problem w/leather corals-ever.
try using it in the following manner:
start w/one tablespoon of phosguard to every 10gal. net of volume
change every 3-4 days, until the PO4 reading hits 0
then put in the maintenance charge
just make sure you rinse the phosguard properly, before use
phosphate removers, like antibiotics-are a short term fix for a symptom, however.
they will not affect the root cause of the problem
a multiple prong attack fix is usually the best way to go-when trying to fix ANY problem-most problems are the result of a combination of causes, not just one :wink:
pure source water(rodi), good flow, proper light, skimming, kalkvasser, water changes-all contribute to eliminating various environmental problems in systems
just try to get the tang into the tank upgrade as soon as you can :wink:
hth
e-mycin can be extremely effective at killing off cyano present in a tank-i've used it often, recommended it to customers, with a 100% effectiveness rate
the dosage should be 250mg/every 10 gal.net of water volume-followed by a repeat dose in 48 hrs-left in the tank for at least a week
HOWEVER-remember the following:
the e-mycin will not eliminate the cause of the cyano-
if you do not follow the treatment to the end, and any cyano remains-the e-mycin will probably be inneffective the next time you treat-
e-mycin interferes w/some of the metabolic pathways in the cells of the cyano-it's a slow killer-and takes some time to work
killing off the cyano, and using the e-mycin-will actually leave even more nutrients in the system to feed more 'nuisance algaes',- both from the breakdown of the e-mycin, and the rerelease of the nutrients bound up in the cyano-a series of large water changes is a must after treatment
e-mycin is a very effective foaming agent for a skimmer, too-shut it off, or it will drain your tank from over skimming
both the presence of phosphates, and doc's, kind of go hand in hand-they are both waste products-if you have one at a high level-it's safe to say the other is also high-i'd treat them both as a group, as far as their contribution to nuisance algae growth(including cyano)
regarding antibiotics in general:
they are very poorly absorbed by fish through water-they may be effective on supperficial wounds-to a degree, but the best method of administeration is via their food-to get the antibiotic in the gut-try soaking some food in some antibiotic mixed w/water
i've used phosguard by seachem repeatedly, and so have many of my former customers-none of us ever had a problem w/leather corals-ever.
try using it in the following manner:
start w/one tablespoon of phosguard to every 10gal. net of volume
change every 3-4 days, until the PO4 reading hits 0
then put in the maintenance charge
just make sure you rinse the phosguard properly, before use
phosphate removers, like antibiotics-are a short term fix for a symptom, however.
they will not affect the root cause of the problem
a multiple prong attack fix is usually the best way to go-when trying to fix ANY problem-most problems are the result of a combination of causes, not just one :wink:
pure source water(rodi), good flow, proper light, skimming, kalkvasser, water changes-all contribute to eliminating various environmental problems in systems
just try to get the tang into the tank upgrade as soon as you can :wink:
hth
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