Source for Cryptocaryon irritans/Marine Ich
- Thread starter StevenPro
- Start date
Ich's lifecycle is complicated. It exists in dormancy in all fish. Poor conditions/stress allows it to emerge when a fish's immune system is depressed.
It is not a bacteria. It cannot be cultured in the absence of a host organism. What possible "experiments" could you have in mind?
It is not a bacteria. It cannot be cultured in the absence of a host organism. What possible "experiments" could you have in mind?
"It exists in dormancy in all fish. Poor conditions/stress allows it to emerge when a fish's immune system is depressed"- Do you have a reference for this or is this just your opinion? I am not trying to be a smart a$$, just genuinely curious.
"It is not a bacteria." - I know.
"It cannot be cultured in the absence of a host organism." - There are techniques to culture Cryptocaryon irritans outside of the presence of a live fish host. I believe Edward Noga detailed it, but canot find my copy at the moment.
"What possible "experiments" could you have in mind?" - I wrote this a couple of months ago, http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm Part two should be out in October. I am planning a part three where I do some testing. One thing I wanted to study is if garlic actually works as a preventative or cure. I wanted a source for cultured Cryptocaryon because I don't want to go through the trouble of isolating and culturing it from a sick fish. I need a clean/pure sample to expose to healthy fish (half fed a normal diet, the other half a garlic supplemented one) and I don't want to introduce the possibility of another pathogen like Amyloodinium or something else.
If you have any additional ideas or thoughts, I will be checking back in.
"It is not a bacteria." - I know.
"It cannot be cultured in the absence of a host organism." - There are techniques to culture Cryptocaryon irritans outside of the presence of a live fish host. I believe Edward Noga detailed it, but canot find my copy at the moment.
"What possible "experiments" could you have in mind?" - I wrote this a couple of months ago, http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm Part two should be out in October. I am planning a part three where I do some testing. One thing I wanted to study is if garlic actually works as a preventative or cure. I wanted a source for cultured Cryptocaryon because I don't want to go through the trouble of isolating and culturing it from a sick fish. I need a clean/pure sample to expose to healthy fish (half fed a normal diet, the other half a garlic supplemented one) and I don't want to introduce the possibility of another pathogen like Amyloodinium or something else.
If you have any additional ideas or thoughts, I will be checking back in.
I just got back from having sushi with Anthony and he did not have any ideas.
I am actually going to use freshwater Mollies that I will adapt to full-strength saltwater because having spent their entire life in fresh, they will have never been exposed and have no natural immunity to try and factor out. I am waiting for a couple of contacts to respond. If I continue to strike out, I may have to resign myself to isolating and culturing my own.
I am actually going to use freshwater Mollies that I will adapt to full-strength saltwater because having spent their entire life in fresh, they will have never been exposed and have no natural immunity to try and factor out. I am waiting for a couple of contacts to respond. If I continue to strike out, I may have to resign myself to isolating and culturing my own.
Hello Snapper,
I would just like to say that C. irritans does not exist in a dormant stage in all fish - or any fish for that matter.
The life cycle (trophont, tomont, theront) doesn't work that way.
Thank you for this opportunity, as it's been at least a day since I've had to correct a statement like this.
This concludes our daily lesson of 'WHY ICH ISN'T ALWAYS IN OUR TANKS"
Jim
I would just like to say that C. irritans does not exist in a dormant stage in all fish - or any fish for that matter.
The life cycle (trophont, tomont, theront) doesn't work that way.
Thank you for this opportunity, as it's been at least a day since I've had to correct a statement like this.
This concludes our daily lesson of 'WHY ICH ISN'T ALWAYS IN OUR TANKS"
Jim
StevenPro":13rpf98d said:
Yeah, with my serious LACK of results I was beginning to think that you'd have your best chance with some sort of scientific supply, I even sent out an email to my old supervisor at LBAOP, with a response of (paraphrasing), "Why on earth would we culture something we work so hard to eradicate?" Then suggesting self-culture. <shrugs> I figured since they've got a full lab and staff vet it was worth a try.
That's an excellent idea, Steven. You'll only be left with the issue of introducing other pathogens/infectious agents as you mentioned previously. I will continue to look, though it's really not looking promising as a "layman". I will suggest contacting Galleon (he's also on the WWM crew now), as he's a student at Eckerd in Florida, and I believe he works in one of the labs at Mote. Now, I know that he's a big cnidarian guy, but who knows, he might know someone who might know someone... that whole networking thing. Has Bob been queried?
JimM":hzp4cad1 said:I would just like to say that C. irritans does not exist in a dormant stage in all fish - or any fish for that matter.
The life cycle (trophont, tomont, theront) doesn't work that way.
Thank you for this opportunity, as it's been at least a day since I've had to correct a statement like this.
This concludes our daily lesson of 'WHY ICH ISN'T ALWAYS IN OUR TANKS"
Jim,
I think this very common misperception arises from casual observation:
"I" see no ich in my tank for several months/years, then something provides a stressor (temp issues, introduction of toxin, degraded water quality, whatever) and "suddenly" my fish develop ich (when nothing has been added that could account for a new infestation). Obviously, the ich has been in the tank the entire time and "I" haven't noticed it (low level infestation, gill infestation, whatever).
So, although "dormant" would not be the term to use (with an understanding of the irritans life cycle), "ich free" might be a phrase that is more difficult to accomplish within our tanks than most people understand.
FWIW,
Kevin
That's interesting Anemone, and I've heard it before. I must say, I can't account for it, nor have I experienced it. When my fish have stressed, due to extreme drops in temp during a move or whatever, I've never had a problem with ich.
It seems that in some cases there is, as you said, a low level or subacute infestation going on. But for years?
Having said that, having an ichfree system is very possible. I do it with all my systems. I find it rather easy actually.
I seem to hear the story you relate most often where tangs are concerned. Maybe if I kept powder blues, achilles, etc I might experience such an event - I don't know.
Any way you slice it, you can't say that ich is present in all systems, all the time. I think maybe you had it somehow, although I find it baffling. I think the phenomenon you speak of needs some research.
Cheers
Jim
It seems that in some cases there is, as you said, a low level or subacute infestation going on. But for years?
Having said that, having an ichfree system is very possible. I do it with all my systems. I find it rather easy actually.
I seem to hear the story you relate most often where tangs are concerned. Maybe if I kept powder blues, achilles, etc I might experience such an event - I don't know.
Any way you slice it, you can't say that ich is present in all systems, all the time. I think maybe you had it somehow, although I find it baffling. I think the phenomenon you speak of needs some research.
Cheers
Jim
Hello,
This is going to sound silly but I need close up pictures of C. I. / Marine Ich / White Spot Disease. I know what it looks like when a fish has ich - I was more hoping for pictures of the actual parasite in each cycle. Can anyone help me? I feel like I have been everywhere on the internet.
Thank you!
Sheila
This is going to sound silly but I need close up pictures of C. I. / Marine Ich / White Spot Disease. I know what it looks like when a fish has ich - I was more hoping for pictures of the actual parasite in each cycle. Can anyone help me? I feel like I have been everywhere on the internet.
Thank you!
Sheila
No, I haven't found anything. Thanks for looking though.
Now I have a new problem (not that I ever really expect that to end with saltwater). I have a reef tank. 55 gal. It has 4 shrimp, three crabs, a watchman goby and just a couple corals. It has been up for 4 months and I have been real cautious about adding animals and corals. Everything was going fine. Water tests out beautifully. The past two days the shrimp have started dying off. I have lost three of them. They are dying slowly and we have added iodine as directed by our favorite saltwater pet shop. The water is testing perfect - still - and the only thing that has changed is a small new piece of live rock. I can't for the life of me figure out what is going on.
Any advice would be appriciated!
Thanks,
Sheila
Now I have a new problem (not that I ever really expect that to end with saltwater). I have a reef tank. 55 gal. It has 4 shrimp, three crabs, a watchman goby and just a couple corals. It has been up for 4 months and I have been real cautious about adding animals and corals. Everything was going fine. Water tests out beautifully. The past two days the shrimp have started dying off. I have lost three of them. They are dying slowly and we have added iodine as directed by our favorite saltwater pet shop. The water is testing perfect - still - and the only thing that has changed is a small new piece of live rock. I can't for the life of me figure out what is going on.
Any advice would be appriciated!
Thanks,
Sheila
Iodine supplementation is not needed if you do regular water changes. Is it possible you have a mantis hitchiker in your new LR? Are the dead shrimp found? Are their remains in the same place? What about molts...are you sure you're not seeing the molts, and the shrimp are hiding elsewhere?
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