• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

MattM

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All -

It's starting to become clear that we will not be able to raise enough money to carry out the ambitious study we originally planned (details can be found here).

In order to move forward, we would like to split this effort into two phases:
  1. Test as many salts as possible, doing two tests per salt for consistency, within a budget of $4000 - $4500. We think this is a level of funding that we can realistically achieve in short order. A quick calculation shows that we should be able to do about 7 salts for this amount.
  2. Depending on the level of interest (and funding) that can be raised by completing phase one, we will continue with more salts in a second phase of testing.
In order to pick the salts to be included in phase one, we are working with Reefs.org to set up a poll based on the original list of 17 salts. In other words, you will pick the salts to be tested in phase one.

Thank you for all your support and patience!
 

Agu

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I have to really question the value and validity of an artificial sea salt analysis at this point. The original reason as stated by Matt here,

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t ... c&start=20

posted on March 14 asserts the study is to check Dr Shimeks test results. Have samples of said salts been procured and isolated since March. Do we have any reason to believe the manufacturers haven't changed formulations ? After the Combisan debacle is there an outside chance salt manufacturers may have assayed their own products and made adjustments?

Yes Combisans "Guaranteed Analysis" didn't match what was actually in the bottle. Is there a possibility had you tested Combisan seven months later the test results may have been different ?

Funds were raised based on a premise, ie; confirm/dispute analysis by a very specific study (which can be seen here http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/r ... /index.htm , at this late date there is no integrity to that study unless the artificial salts were purchased and stored seven months ago.

My recommendation,Change the premise of the "study" and ask contributors if they still want to donate. The original reason/premise/hypothesis is like a leaking tank, it no longer holds water.

Disclaimer, I Am a moderator at Reef Central http://reefcentral.com/index.php?s=a53e ... ff16c0da0a
I'm posting as an individual and don't pretend to reflect official Reef Central policy,

Agu
 

MattM

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Agu":1dnj2qsx said:
Have samples of said salts been procured and isolated since March.

Yes. Most of the salts were procured long ago and are stored in unopened original packaging.

Agu":1dnj2qsx said:
Is there a possibility had you tested Combisan seven months later the test results may have been different ?

No. In fact, Combi-San is exactly the same today as it was then. The only response from the distributor was to remove the analysis from the label.

We have spoken to representatives of many of the salt companies. To date, Aqua Medic was the only one who had heard of this proposed study. I think you are overestimating the ability of these boards to influence manufacturers. The vast majority are totally unaware of them.
 

golfish

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Matt,
I did recieve your e-mail and the refund check for my donation. I'm sorry things didn't work out. I have done business with IA in the past and will continue to to do business with them.

Good luck

Mark
 

Len

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Mark your calenders, ladies and gentlemen! Here is the much anticipated Salt Study charity auctions and raffles schedule. 100% of your contributions will go directly to funding this important study, so please be generous! :P Direct donations can still be made at Inland Reefs's Salt Study webpage: http://www.inlandreef.net/saanprdo.html

Without further ado .....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

October 22, 2 week auction: Sunlight Supply 250W DE "HQI" Metal Halide Reefoptix Pendant System
October 22, 2 week raffle: Pet Warehouse $150 gift certificate, good for LiveAquaria too ($5/ticket)

October 28, 2 week auction: Complete 120 gallon System!!! 120g acrylic tank, All-Glass furniture-grade Modern stand & canopy.
October 28, 2 week raffle: Premium Aquatics Refractometer ($5/ticket), TWO winning tickets will be drawn!

November 5, 2 week auction: AquaC EV-180 protein skimmer
November 5, 2 week auction: Captive Purity 75ppd RO/DI system from Marine Depot
November 5, 2 week raffle: MACO 11 week course (winner's choice, $4/ticket)

November 11, 2 week auction: DB ReefTech PS-5SE aspirating protein skimmer
November 11, 2 week auction: Premium Aquatics Refractometer
November 11, 2 week raffle: MACO 5 week course (winner's choice, $3/ticket)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Details about each auction and raffle will be posted shortly. More auctions and raffles are in the works. The above is a tentative schedule and is subject to change. If you would like to donate any items for Reefs.org to raffle or auction to support the Salt Study, please contact [email protected].
 
A

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very very nice!! :D

good luck, guys, for a very successful venture, both the fundraising, and the test :D :D
 

Len

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Due to some complications with ebay and some scheduling conflicts with the holidays, we have revised the auction and raffle schedule as follows:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

October 26, 2 week auction: Sunlight Supply 250W DE "HQI" Metal Halide Reefoptix Pendant System
October 26, 2 week raffle: Pet Warehouse $150 gift certificate, good for LiveAquaria too ($5/ticket)

November 2, 2 week auction: Complete 120 gallon System!!! 120g acrylic tank, All-Glass furniture-grade Modern stand & canopy.
November 2, 2 week raffle: Premium Aquatics Refractometer ($5/ticket), TWO winning tickets will be drawn!

November 9, 2 week auction: AquaC EV-180 protein skimmer
November 9, 2 week auction: Captive Purity 75ppd RO/DI system from Marine Depot
November 9, 2 week raffle: MACO 11 week course (winner's choice, $4/ticket)

November 23, 2 week auction: DB ReefTech PS-5SE aspirating protein skimmer
November 23, 2 week auction: Premium Aquatics Refractometer
November 23, 2 week raffle: MACO 5 week course (winner's choice, $3/ticket)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As previously stated, more auctions and raffles are in the works. If you would like to donate any items for Reefs.org to raffle or auction to support the Salt Study, please contact [email protected].

Thanks!
 

Len

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The first raffle is now underway. Please click the following URL to go to buy your raffle tickets:
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=356920

The auctions have been postponed to start on Thursdays and run for 10 days because that is the maxium duration eBay permits. The first auction has already been scheduled in eBay to begin on October 30, 2003, 3:00pm EST. Please check back inthis thread for the auction URL on 10/30/03.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't forget to participate in the two Salt Study Polls:
Which synthetic salt would you most like to see tested first?
What is the second synthetic salt you would most like to see tested?
 

Len

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Instead of cluttering up the forum with more stickies, I've decided to post all auction/raffle announcements here. Here are the current auctions going on:

AquaC EV 180 Protein Skimmer (ends 11/23, 6:00pm EST)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2359936480

Premium Aquatics Refractometer #2 (ends 11/23, 6:00pm EST)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2358048133

Premium Aquatics Refractometer #3 (ends 11/23, 6:00pm EST)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2358048313

Or you can view all the current auctions at any time with the following link:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?V ... d=reefsorg

Happy bidding, and thanks for participating. Your bids help make the Salt Study possible!
 

randy holmes-farley

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A word of advice on some of the analyses. I don't know what lab you have selected for the study, but if they are not highly experienced with using ICP-MS to look for trace elements in seawater, there are some potential pitfalls with ICP-MS in seawater that I have recently become aware of (and the lab should be alerted to). If they have done many such studies (with seawater), then there is likely no significant concern.

However, in reviewing another salt study (not yet published), there were some results that got me wondering if ICP-MS (as practiced in many labs) is generally suitable for copper in seawater. It turns out that there are interferences for copper arising from sodium, calcium, and sulfur-containing species. In many analysis, these are not so important. In seawater, however, these other ions can be present at millions of times the copper concentration, and the interference can become overwhelming, making the copper readings potentially useless.

(I couldn't figure out where else to post this, so if it is better attached to a different thread, please move it, thanks).
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley":qbm2kuw6 said:
A word of advice on some of the analyses. I don't know what lab you have selected for the study, but if they are not highly experienced with using ICP-MS to look for trace elements in seawater, there are some potential pitfalls with ICP-MS in seawater that I have recently become aware of (and the lab should be alerted to). If they have done many such studies (with seawater), then there is likely no significant concern.

However, in reviewing another salt study (not yet published), there were some results that got me wondering if ICP-MS (as practiced in many labs) is generally suitable for copper in seawater. It turns out that there are interferences for copper arising from sodium, calcium, and sulfur-containing species. In many analysis, these are not so important. In seawater, however, these other ions can be present at millions of times the copper concentration, and the interference can become overwhelming, making the copper readings potentially useless.

(I couldn't figure out where else to post this, so if it is better attached to a different thread, please move it, thanks).

Copper in seawater with ICP-MS can be done.
There are indeed MANY pitfalls with this method including signals of combination of some elements with the Argon and showing up as a element which is not there or in a mich lower concentration.

Another pitfall is that an isotope is measured and extrapolated to an actual concentration based on natural isotope abundances.

For some elements this gives huge errors.



Matt:

I heard that Mike del Prete of Aquacraft (MDPinUSA) has adviced you guys on how to do the tests.

Is this correct?
 

MattM

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Salifert":fbjgerif said:
Matt:

I heard that Mike del Prete of Aquacraft (MDPinUSA) has adviced you guys on how to do the tests.

Is this correct?

No, this is not correct.

I have not contacted him nor have I been contacted by him.

Where did you hear this?
 

randy holmes-farley

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Habib:

There are indeed MANY pitfalls with this method including signals of combination of some elements with the Argon and showing up as a element which is not there or in a mich lower concentration.

I don't doubt that it can be done if one knows what to watch out for (lloking at various isotopes, etc). In the study that I reviewed, I think that the lab might not have been expereinced with copper in seawater, and hence might have gotten potentially spurious results.
 

MattM

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I emailed the lab about about Habib's concerns. Their reply, in part says:

Advances in Cool Plasma ICPMS have helped eliminate or reduce interferences caused by the argon plasma thus allowing lower detection levels for Li, Na, K, Ca, Fe and other elements that were previously problematic to test with this procedure.

They seem confident in their ability to provide results sufficiently accurate for our purposes when testing seawater.
 
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MattM":3k9m3mkk said:
Salifert":3k9m3mkk said:
Matt:

I heard that Mike del Prete of Aquacraft (MDPinUSA) has adviced you guys on how to do the tests.

Is this correct?

No, this is not correct.

I have not contacted him nor have I been contacted by him.

Where did you hear this?

Matt:

He wrote it on Reffaquarium guide ( http://www.reefaquariumguide.com/forums ... post275093 .

I have pasted the post here below and bolding is mine.



Looks like some people are thinking about marine salts...

a) snow storm. b) losing animals. c) inconsistent mix. d) some bad batches, should we switch. e) etc.

1) I cannot imagine buying a proported top brand of marine salt and having to add ca, mg and/or a buffer! Why not just use a decent salt initially?

I cannot imagine using a marine salt again and again that is inconsisent from package to package... sometimes contaminated with impurities that foment the undesireable growth of brown and or red and or slime algae.

But, hey, that is just me. LOL

2) Send all this over to RC and buckle up for one heck of a ride! The majorty of RC'ers are the ones that defend their position of total weakness I described in an earlier post. - Most suffer from "do what the others do. Forget common sense. Let all have the same problems".

3) I have been involved with independent labs and testing marine salts since 1980 to Nov. 2002. The results are printed for the world to see.

4) When I learned of Inlands proposed marine salt tests I contacted them and offered some thoughts as to their test. I believe they took most to heart.

However, spending $10,000 - $15,000 to test multiple samples of marine salts and have it comparable to one other validated test is simply not enough money.

Inland indicates at one time they would use a lab that employed ICP testing procedure. One person on Reefs.Org said... "ICP is good enough for me"... In reality, ICP is the considered reliable for testing a complex medium such as sea water.

5) There is one salt manufacturer that stamps a production code on each master carton. This code indicates the day of production and the crew that made it. And, a 500 gram sample from each batch is retained for QC.

If you use a marine salt that is of concern, and there is no batch number, WE have no way of knowing when it was produced, let alone having that manufacturer actually keep a sample for reference.

6) I have recent email communication with Habib. He indicates that Seatest (Hach made test kit) reads high in Ca and LaMotte suffers from accurate readings via dilution problems.

I.e. From what I read, he says that other test kits are wrong and Salifert is correct.

I have tested IO and TM for Ca with Salifert, Seatest, Lamotte and sent the same samples to outside labs. The results are similar.

I tested another manufacturers brand for Ca with Seatest and LaMotte and send the same sample to an outside source and the results were comparable.... However, when I tested the SAME sample with Salifert it showed 42% lower in Ca.

This is when I emailed Habib. I asked simple questions. His reply was nothing less than I expected.. e.g. My test kit is correct, others are incorrect. -- OK.... anyone ready for the Test Kit War?

I do not make test kits. I have no plans to make test kits. I have no vested interest in test kits... I have no axe to grind... But I would like to be able to use a resonably priced test kit and get resonable results.

7) I must say that this group is one of the best groups I have communicated with. Thus far, no cussing, no personal attacks... nothing like posting on RC.

Thank you all for viewing my input.

8) I wish interested individuals could meet at one time in a chat room/channel and discuss this matter. Posting and waiting for replies takes a lot of time. -- Sooner or later the basic topic of this thread will be lost.

MDP



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Michael Del Prete
CEO Aqua Craft.Inc.
 

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