Article on cyanide collection of food fish

[clarionreef]

Mike,
It was Chip Boyle, a Cook Island fish collector from Hawaii that befuddled him.
The Cook Island chip doesn't collect firefish and other cheap junk fish . Chip doesn't bother with fishes whos value has already been ruined by the low standard of the Philippines...based on poor people, not catchability issues.
The real Chip goes after flame hawks, lemon peels and an assortment of deepwater anthias and angels...not algae blennies.
Now I want to see Kalk suggest to Chip that he lacks the skill to catch quantites of these cheap fish if he was motivated to.
Boyle is a collector of considerable talent and can catch anything he wants. If he doesn't catch it its because he doesn't work for 30,40 and 50 cent fish...
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

OOPS, wrong Chip! ........Steve, {I have seen very feiw flame hawks or lemmon peels on cook lists as of late let alone blennies}If Chip is unwilling to net fish for blennies........as well as every Hawaiian collector,Tongan, Fijian, Australian collector, Or even current MAC collectors.......then what makes you think PI collectors will ? { Unless the price is increased to the point that its worth a collector begging blennies to come out of that damn hole all day long.....}
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Stock paintball

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
Tongans catch too many of those damn yellow canary blennies and bundoons. They saturate the market on the endemics with their efficiency. The junk under a buck, they ignore.
Aussies catch rainfordis, assessors, canaries, helfrichis, golden heads etc. All you can pay for.
The Sri Lanka list of sleeper and dragon species is just too long to list...thousands and thouands per week.
The Philippines produces firefish, mandarins, barred gobies, scissortails, blue gudgeons, clown gobies to the point of having enough for every petshop in America. Those fish are not caught w/ cyanide either.
Who is writing your stuff? Ya gotta get new advisors.
The cyanide problem is dominantly an angelfish , blue tang and clown trigger problem. Not a goby, blenny one.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

My question is , at what point will Chip be willing to collect blennies? Is he only willing to collect blennies when blennies become more profitable then Ventralis or Velvets......? How bout Hawaii.......or Tonga........or Fiji? These collectors even by your own account will never be willing to fish for these cheap fish armed solely with nets... So you agree that the price of all cheap fish must increase if net fishermen are to be willing to painstakingly hunt for these tiny reef fish with nets.........
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Lost Forum

 

[clarionreef]

Its the country of origin, the standard of living and the value of currency that determines the volume and variety of species targeted.
Western collectors will not work for so little. They have other fish to go after...and they do!
Three thousand collectors in the Philippines overproducing on too many fish drives down the market price. The devaluation of the peso helps to keep it down.
Two white guys in the Cooks, a handful of divers in Tonga...really, its a different world that has nothing to do w/ cyanide vs. nets.
Poorer people tend to work cheaper by our standards than American divers. Now the guys from the Philippines moved into Tonga and VANUATU and the Red sea do not work for Philippines standards anymore. They make a lot more money now working in another country because it pays them better...especially to collect non Philippine species.
Why compete for the low end. In every country its only natural to play to your strengths and that means pursuing more endemics. Not looking for firefish to catch for 20 cents.
Write this down.
Poorer people work for less than richer people.
Strange concept and difficult to grasp I relize...but true!
Steve

 

[mkirda]

Write this down.
Poorer people work for less than richer people.
Strange concept and difficult to grasp I relize...but true!
Steve

Add this to the list of things you need to learn in order to be a reefkeeper:

An Economist.

Jeez, Kalkbreath... Does the simple idea of supply and demand elude you?

There is the concept called 'catch per unit effort'. People will seek to maximize their catch, not only in numbers, but in value. If I can catch one blue tang or 100 mandarins, and I make the same amount of money, which do you go for?

I amazes me that you are actually in the trade, yet do not inherently grasp this stuff...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,
Tongans catch too many of those damn yellow canary blennies and bundoons. They saturate the market on the endemics with their efficiency. The junk under a buck, they ignore.
Aussies catch rainfordis, assessors, canaries, helfrichis, golden heads etc. All you can pay for.
The Sri Lanka list of sleeper and dragon species is just too long to list...thousands and thouands per week.
The Philippines produces firefish, mandarins, barred gobies, scissortails, blue gudgeons, clown gobies to the point of having enough for every petshop in America. Those fish are not caught w/ cyanide either.
Who is writing your stuff? Ya gotta get new advisors.
The cyanide problem is dominantly an angelfish , blue tang and clown trigger problem. Not a goby, blenny one.
Steve

............what percentage of the total tiny fish imports does all those "other Countries "amount to? 5%? How many of those Assise fish land in the states a week? one of each ?....the Tonga's only collect two species because those are the two that are easy to collect.........And Shrilanka only catches sand dwelling schooling species {out in the open}........and in tiny quantities compared to PI ...........And lastly......if the cyanide problem is only Angle fish , blue tangs and Clown triggers........then why are the examples of coral bleaching holes in the ground?{eel rubbings} How many clown triggers or Blue tangs dart for the wholes in the sand?I am still looking for all those vast coral bleaching in giant stands of Acropora forests {where Clown Triggers and Blue tangs wedge themselves}
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Honda Ballade

 

[Kalkbreath]

Write this down.
Poorer people work for less than richer people.
Strange concept and difficult to grasp I relize...but true!
Steve

Add this to the list of things you need to learn in order to be a reefkeeper:

An Economist.

Jeez, Kalkbreath... Does the simple idea of supply and demand elude you?

There is the concept called 'catch per unit effort'. People will seek to maximize their catch, not only in numbers, but in value. If I can catch one blue tang or 100 mandarins, and I make the same amount of money, which do you go for?

I amazes me that you are actually in the trade, yet do not inherently grasp this stuff...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I would go for the Mandarins ........A mandarin cost about 2 bucks from PI and a A small blue tang 3.50.........so at the 100 to 1 example you so sophomorically gave.....I would make 196.50.....or fifty time what you would ........if you chose to collect the Tang!
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Mercedes O405

 

[mkirda]

I would go for the Mandarins ........A mandarin cost about 2 bucks from PI and a A small blue tang 3.50.........so at the 100 to 1 example you so sophomorically gave.....I would make 196.50.....or fifty time what you would ........if you chose to collect the Tang!

Ok, substitute blue-face angel for blue tang. :roll:

You still do not get what you should be inherently grasping.
Blennies/gobies are cheap because of supply and demand. Tighten up the supply, the prices will rise. Surely you understand this...

If collectors in other places get higher value fish because the CPUE is higher, what is the problem? I honestly do not understand why you seemingly cannot grasp this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Its the country of origin, the standard of living and the value of currency that determines the volume and variety of species targeted.
Western collectors will not work for so little. They have other fish to go after...and they do!
Three thousand collectors in the Philippines overproducing on too many fish drives down the market price. The devaluation of the peso helps to keep it down.
Two white guys in the Cooks, a handful of divers in Tonga...really, its a different world that has nothing to do w/ cyanide vs. nets.
Poorer people tend to work cheaper by our standards than American divers. Now the guys from the Philippines moved into Tonga and VANUATU and the Red sea do not work for Philippines standards anymore. They make a lot more money now working in another country because it pays them better...especially to collect non Philippine species.
Why compete for the low end. In every country its only natural to play to your strengths and that means pursuing more endemics. Not looking for firefish to catch for 20 cents.
Write this down.
Poorer people work for less than richer people.
Strange concept and difficult to grasp I relize...but true!
Steve

One can make a more money selling 10,000 fire fish a week at 20 cents then three blueface at twenty bucks........It happens every week
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Honda CD200 RoadMaster

 

[mkirda]

I am still looking for all those vast coral bleaching in giant stands of Acropora forests {where Clown Triggers and Blue tangs wedge themselves}

Yeah, me too. I'd like to see those giant stands of Acropora at the depths where clown triggers are caught... :roll:

Jeez, Kalkbreath... I'm embarrassed for you.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

One can make a more money selling 10,000 fire fish a week at 20 cents then three blueface at twenty bucks........It happens every week

I'd like to see the diver that can catch 10,000 firefish a week.
And the area that could produce that number sustainably.
And you say *my* arguments were sophmoric.

Again, I'm really getting embarrassed for you, Kalkbreath.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

I would go for the Mandarins ........A mandarin cost about 2 bucks from PI and a A small blue tang 3.50.........so at the 100 to 1 example you so sophomorically gave.....I would make 196.50.....or fifty time what you would ........if you chose to collect the Tang!

Ok, substitute blue-face angel for blue tang. :roll:

You still do not get what you should be inherently grasping.
Blennies/gobies are cheap because of supply and demand. Tighten up the supply, the prices will rise. Surely you understand this...

If collectors in other places get higher value fish because the CPUE is higher, what is the problem? I honestly do not understand why you seemingly cannot grasp this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Even if we substitute blue face......it still comes out five times more profitable if you collect the mandarin fish! The total weekly export of blue faces is very small .......everywhere in the world..........the total number of Gobi's sold to hobbyists is much greater then bluefaces.............therefore the "demand" is the opposite of what you stress............A blueface is expensive.at retail.....not due to the demand, but due to the high cost of shipping......and risk when shipping{DOA}
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Ecstasy Rehab Forum

 

[Kalkbreath]

One can make a more money selling 10,000 fire fish a week at 20 cents then three blueface at twenty bucks........It happens every week

I'd like to see the diver that can catch 10,000 firefish a week.
And the area that could produce that number sustainably.
And you say *my* arguments were sophmoric.

Again, I'm really getting embarrassed for you, Kalkbreath.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

There are many exporter lists which sport those kind of ratios every week......not per diver but per company.......Perhaps you should stockpile the embarrassment for personal use
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recession definition

 

[mkirda]

There are many exporter lists which sport those kind of ratios every week......not per diver but per company.......Perhaps you should stockpile the embarrassment for personal use

Then you are comparing apples with dragons, Kalkbreath.

You ask about divers, then switch to exporters.
Let me let you in on a little secret...

Divers do not equal exporters.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[PeterIMA]

To Mike and Mitch, I believe Kalk was referring to collector Chip Boeta of the Cook Islands Fish Ltd. (See Aquarium Fish Gets Warranty article posted here several months ago) not to Chip Barber.

As far as I know, Dr. Charles (Chip) Barber has not resigned from IMA (although he has not been active lately because he has been doing outside consulting).


Peter Rubec
Peter Rubec

 

[dizzy]

Introducing myself: Chip Barber, currently a consultant on various protected areas and environmental issues globally and in Southeast Asia (including the Philippines) for The Nature Conservancy, IUCN and the World Bank. I was with IMA until late last year, since October 2001, and worked with IMA on cyanide fishing issues for some years before that when I was at the World Resources Institute, based in Manila (1994-2001). I am still IMA's MAC board member, although my term is ending soon.
[/img]

Peter,
Here it is for those who don't want scroll back a page or two. At least he didn't fall out of that window. :wink:

 

[Dogfish Head]

Kalkbreath: I think you have me confused with the Chip who is a collector in the Cooks, that's not me! So sorry, I can't help you with your questions. I am just a policy wonk type, one of those evil people working for an environmental NGO that Steve Robinson is always going on about. :twisted:

 

[JennM]

Kalk said:

therefore the "demand" is the opposite of what you stress............A blueface is expensive.at retail.....not due to the demand, but due to the high cost of shipping......and risk when shipping{DOA}

Short of my wanting to correct your posts' grammar and spelling and send them back, but alas, I digress. Do you realize you are contradicting yourself right here?

A Blueface IS expensive at retail - for several reasons: 1) The market can support an expensive retail price (read: people are willing to pay, or the fish will become a permanent resident at the store, or eventually leaves in a trash bag.). 2) Shorter supplies and increased mortality ::: Insert Church Lady Voice here::::: hmmm could that be because of, ummm CYANIDE???). You said it yourself - increased risk of mortality. Most angels are fairly sturdy - if they are caught properly and handled and packed properly, they survive just fine if they can be stimulated to feed (sure, there are exceptions...). That's a big IF - to be caught and handled properly.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled eel rubbing session. :lol:

Jenn :roll: 8O :?

 

[Kalkbreath]

I am still looking for all those vast coral bleaching in giant stands of Acropora forests {where Clown Triggers and Blue tangs wedge themselves}

Yeah, me too. I'd like to see those giant stands of Acropora at the depths where clown triggers are caught... :roll:

Jeez, Kalkbreath... I'm embarrassed for you.

So Lets see, we can remove one of the three fish types {Clown Triggers} that our experts agree are the only three fish which PI fishermen use cyanide to collect ............?.......Now this leaves only "Angles and Blue tangs as fish that collectors harm the reef while collecting? We can rest assured that mkirta has proven that no Coral reefs have ever been hurt collecting Clown triggers! So lets set the record strate..........The pres. of the AMDA is sure that only Angel fish and Blue tangs are collected in a manor that harms the coral.{being that we removed Clown tangs, because they are collected too deep to have any impact on SPS corals} {read above posts} Two fish?Why is it that every fish collected from PI is given the scarlet letter "C" When even the expert agree its only about Angels and Blue tangs?
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ak47 strain