Lighting in Reef Tanks feature: Questions

[RicardoMiozzo]

I'd like to get the discussion to the following point of view;
I am not a cientist, but work with aquariua for several years.
What I have observed in this time, is that whatever the procedures in aquarium keeping, there's absolutely no reason to mantain Ca++ and Alk levels above NSW own levels. In one way or the other, having alk, for exemple, at levels like the current books and magazines sugest (450 ppm Ca++ or something like this, and alk at 3 or 4 Meq/L) can be more deleterious to the corals than simply keeping them at around 380 ppm Ca++ and the natural 2.3 Meq/L Alk.
I am not considering suddenly boosting alk, that obsviously will have bad consequences (I know it, Charles).
But keeping levels above NSW, in my observations, will, eventually, cause some problem.
I understand that it is possible that keeping alk so high will eventually make the coral expell zooxanthellae and acquire more color - that is the absolute goal of every aquarist. And consequently, this would lead the coral to respond producing more protective UV pigments. This only fact would make the coral fragile, because what really interests to the animal is to have zooxanthellae enough to nourish it.
Any thoughts ?

 

[AF Founder]

I'd like to get the discussion to the following point of view;
I am not a cientist, but work with aquariua for several years.
What I have observed in this time, is that whatever the procedures in aquarium keeping, there's absolutely no reason to mantain Ca++ and Alk levels above NSW own levels. In one way or the other, having alk, for exemple, at levels like the current books and magazines sugest (450 ppm Ca++ or something like this, and alk at 3 or 4 Meq/L) can be more deleterious to the corals than simply keeping them at around 380 ppm Ca++ and the natural 2.3 Meq/L Alk.
I am not considering suddenly boosting alk, that obsviously will have bad consequences (I know it, Charles).
But keeping levels above NSW, in my observations, will, eventually, cause some problem.
I understand that it is possible that keeping alk so high will eventually make the coral expell zooxanthellae and acquire more color - that is the absolute goal of every aquarist. And consequently, this would lead the coral to respond producing more protective UV pigments. This only fact would make the coral fragile, because what really interests to the animal is to have zooxanthellae enough to nourish it.
Any thoughts ?

I tend to agree with you, except for one thing. That is, higher alk. is more forgiving where the phosphate and nitrate levels are higher than what is found on a pristine coral reef, and most reef tanks have relatively high nutrient levels. IOW, few reef tanks can keep PO4 levels below 0.015 mg/L.

 

[RicardoMiozzo]

Hello ! Long time no talk !
I see your point.
But let's look the other way round;
PO4 are normally high in aquaria - much higher than in the natural environment.
I understand that hapens only because we add too much fish in our tanks, and they have to eat. So, we are the culprits fot having PO4 so high - that, in essence, is not a dificult problem to deal with. See below:
Let's go to my "ifs";
If an aquarist understands that he does not have a "real" coral reef and that an aquarium is a system that mimics an environment, not actually "being" that environment at all, he has to follow a few simple rules;
1 - Do not overpopulate his tank
2 - Do not overfeed (that is an almost impossible task if the tank is overpopulated)
3 - Dose kalkwasser to export PO4 from the system
4 - Use the adequately sized skimmer to deal with the size and production of the tank
5 - Has the habit of partial water changes
With these 5 "ifs", I doubt PO4 would be of any problem.
But, will PO4 go down because the aquarist buffers the water constanlty ?
PO4 in excess of a certain level (0,1 /0,2 ppm are perfectly acceptable in my point of view) is what will cause CaCo complex depletion. So, having PO4 is the problem.
Buffering the system will not resolve PO4 problems.
Am I wrong ?

 

[AF Founder]

I don't disagree with you. The bottom line is that the successful reef keeper maintains a balance between the consumers of waste and the producers of waste (uneaten food, fish respiration, etc). The consumers are alga, skimmers, etc. The bottom line is always balance, and in a closed system such a balance is difficult to maintain, even recognize. But, successful reef keepers know from hard won experience what to look for for. I only turn to test kits when my eye tells me something is out of balance.

 

[RicardoMiozzo]

I see, Terry.
But, back to the begining; considering the inbalance (i.e. high PO4 levels) is easy to detect, since there's a clear problem in keeping alk and Ca++ levels OK, I believe tests should be used by aquarists in general.
But, reading all that was put in this topic, I still believe that there are several "not-so-sincere" sugestions in the common literature about these problems.
Aquarists in general are told to keep high Alk and Ca++.
Above, Charles puts simply and very interestingly that keeping high alk levels are deleterious to corals.
This is just an example.
I'm saying this because I own a hp and it has its forum, too, and the quantity of messages regarding these problems are impressively high. Then, when I try to put things simply and explain the whole process, there comes someone saing that read somewhere, written by expert aquarists exactly the opposite.
It's difficult to explain that things are not exactly that, abd the problem reaaly lies - normally - in the set up of the tank and the common procedures taken to keep the tank healthy. Not to consider undersized ecquipment such as skimmer, etc.

 

[Julius]

I think what Dana is suggesting is that the increased alkalinity changed the corals physiology overnight, hence enabling it to fix carbon in the darkness.

 

[Julius]

I think what Dana is suggesting is that the increased alkalinity changed the corals physiology overnight, hence enabling it to fix carbon in the darkness.

 

[delbeek]

Ricardo: The term "high phosphate" is relative, high compared to what? Yes it is easy to test for "high phosphate" in a reef tank ... but the kits used by hobbyists can only measure 0.01 increments ... this is already 10x normal seawater values.

The only way a coral can change colour "overnight" is to expel their zooxanthellae, exposing the animal pigments underneath. This "bleaching" will only occur when the coral is stressed. My HYPOTHESIS is that the sudden increase in alkalinity was the stressor, not the LEVEL of alkalinity.

Aloha!
Charles

 

[RicardoMiozzo]

I see, and agree. The problem of bleaching, in my point of view is always a consequence of an important change in some of the several parameters of the aquarium, as for example a boost in alkalinity, the continued manitenance of extremely high temperature or other distressing factor.
Also agree that the measurement of "high phosphate" is relative compared to NSW levels.
But my point is that I strongly believe that keeping higher than NSW levels of Alk, only to keep PO4 levels in acceptable levels - acceptable is the level the coral can stand in aquarium conditions - is not a solution.
Considering we are dealing with something that resembles a coral reef but in fact is far away from that, the information that it is a good thing to keep higher than NSW levels of Alk is good leads the average reefkeeper to do things like using a product to shoot up the Alk level in the minimum time possible. Then the obvious stress to the corals and the consequent bleaching.
People tend to believe on what they read, especially when the author is respected. The normal anxiety to have "the perfect reef" causes the "need" to take the most urgent action and correct that.
What I am trying to say is that I am not talking about the bleaching event anymore, Charles. I do think that the things in aquaria are a lot more simple. My bottomline is that there is no reason to keep any level of any parameter of an aquarium higher that NSW found in coral reefs.
If the aquarist hava a problem of excessively high phosphates, keeping high alkalinity to resolve - or trying to resolve that - is not a solution.
In your book written with Julian, you say that phosphates in excess are a problem caused by something, and the aquarist must search for the reason that causes the problem.
Suggesting that keeping high Alk levels will make PO4 go down is not a solution for me.
I know I went far away from the initial point, but the idea is no good in my point of view.

 

[delbeek]

Ricardo: It is not that high alkalinity lowers phosphate ... it is that higher alkalinity allows corals to continue to calcify in the presence of high phosphate and nitrate. However, it is not so much the actual level of alkalinity that is the solution so much as the calcium carbonate saturation state. You can have low alk and low calcium but a high calcium carbonate sat. state if you have high CO2 content. This is the state of our seawater well-water ... it allows the corals to grow well even with elevated phosphate and nitrate. When I say "elevated" the levels would still be considered low/acceptable by hobbyists but are higher than natural seawater by a factor of at least 10.

This will all be discussed in volume three which HOPE to have available for purchase by late November.

Aloha!
Charles

 

[delbeek]

Ricardo: It is not that high alkalinity lowers phosphate ... it is that higher alkalinity allows corals to continue to calcify in the presence of high phosphate and nitrate. However, it is not so much the actual level of alkalinity that is the solution so much as the calcium carbonate saturation state. You can have low alk and low calcium but a high calcium carbonate sat. state if you have high CO2 content. This is the state of our seawater well-water ... it allows the corals to grow well even with elevated phosphate and nitrate. When I say "elevated" the levels would still be considered low/acceptable by hobbyists but are higher than natural seawater by a factor of at least 10.

This will all be discussed in volume three which HOPE to have available for purchase by late November.

Aloha!
Charles

 

[delbeek]

Suggesting that keeping high Alk levels will make PO4 go down is not a solution for me.

Ricardo: It is not that high alkalinity lowers phosphate ... it is that higher alkalinity allows corals to continue to calcify in the presence of high phosphate and nitrate. However, it is not so much the actual level of alkalinity that is the solution so much as the calcium carbonate saturation state. You can have low alk and low calcium but a high calcium carbonate sat. state if you have high CO2 content. This is the state of our seawater well-water ... it allows the corals to grow well even with elevated phosphate and nitrate. When I say "elevated" the levels would still be considered low/acceptable by hobbyists but are higher than natural seawater by a factor of at least 10.

This will all be discussed in volume three which HOPE to have available for purchase by late November.

Aloha!
Charles

 

[delbeek]

Sorry about the multiple copies ... each time I would post I would a message saying that the submission had failed ... so I tried again!

Maybe I got my point across now. :lol:

 

[RicardoMiozzo]

You surely did, Charles.
I agree with all that.
We are both talking the same thing but in differente senses.
When the aquarist tries to resolve the problem that high PO4 levels cause to calcification of corals, just to say one of the deleterious factors of it, we cannot take in consideration the level of PO4 of the aquarium water compared to NSW.
My point is that corals can grow - and very well - even under this circunstance. I know several aquaria that have 2.3 to 2.4 Meq/L ALk with good coral growth.
My point is: high Alk will allow corals to grow more - OK.
PO4 Level must be controlled to be kept to the minimum possible, once that reaching NSW level is practically impossible. - OK.
But, I can't see the connection suggested by many articles and books that the aquarist must keep Alk so much above NSW level.
PO4 low-maintenance level is not so dificult to reach, for example - dosing calcium hidroxyde as a daily practice and the use of a powerfull skimmer, and several other actions that are available in books - yours and Julian's included.
The problem is that the people that look after solutions for their high PO4 levels are inclined to make the Alk level go up a lot more than necessary, what is not necessarily true. PO4 will still be there.
Boosting Alk in a short period of time can lead to several other problems, like the coral bleaching commented above. Or the precipitation of Ca level, for example.
But we're both in the same path, I think.
I only think that one thing does not resolve the other.
After these years around with aquaria, I learned that bad things happen much faster than good ones, and every new aquarist tends to go for quick solutions for their problems. Sometimes, the solutions suggested can create more confusion than solutions. And one of them is the common belief that it is absolutely necessary to keep higher than NSW level of Alkalinity.

 

[delbeek]

Riccardo if you knew the akalinity level in my 5500 gallon reef tank you would be shocked .. it is well below 2.0.

Aloha!
Charles

 

[RicardoMiozzo]

I am not shocked, because I know several aquaria with low Alk and no problem at all.
My 300 gal. is always around 2.2/2.3 Meq/L, and sometimes it goes a bit lower - and with a calcium reactor running.
Growth of corals here is pretty good, despite that.
So, we're talking the same thing.
The only thing I still have to say is that keeping or suggesting someone to keep high Alk levels to counteract problems of high PO4 levels is no good. PO4 will still be there and there's no cientific data (as far as I know) to confirm that higher than NSW levels of Alk is better to corals in any point.

 

[Rinaldo Fontenele]

Helo my friend Ricardo!
Hi Charles Delbeek.
This topic is very enteresting!