What's the hubub about DSB removal?

[Anonymous]

It appears that a select few folks have had disasters that they blame on the DSB crash. Can this be pinpointed on DSB's? Many here have had healthy DSBs for years and their tanks are better than they ever where. Are there really enough people out there to create a panic?

I'm not saying that a DSB cannot crash, however, I would put some blame on their curators if one did.

I would also appreciate some responses from Charles,Julian, and possibly even Dr.Ron. There answers and experience may help iron this out.

 

[usafresq1]

Yanno there are soo many factors that play a role in failure that you would have to post everything from equipment to water parameters and what was in there and the happenings in the stages of when things started to go bad in order to pin point it out to one thing. Personally the thought of a DSB crashing seems rather far fetched, that would mean something would have to be in the water to kill all the living bacteria in the sand and on the live rock. I'm not saying thats impossible but I would put my money on something else.
Hope this helps you out in some way

~usafresq

 

[Anonymous]

it seems to be a matter of what board you frequent.
DSB's are quickly becoming an "out" fad at RC. The Reef Tank too.

people on this board, as you pointed out, have had good luck and seem content with the method. i have read many DSB threads lately and i don't see the conclusive evidence that is supposedly there that proves DSB methodology faulty.
in short, what i hear repeated is that a DSB does not work because of algae problems and they have algae problems because they don't work.

that is far from the total of what has been brought to light. all sorts of evidence has been presented in hopes of explaining the "sink theory" but it seems to be conjecture and speculation to me. i also think people are viewing things as absolutes when they are variables.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with that. I'm just wondering, because at RC they are crapping on the DSB saying it is a "ticking timebomb". I cannot say I agree and would like people to toss in their opinion.

USAfresq God Bless you and the rest of our military. My family and I will pray for you.

 

[kparton]

Yeah, it's kind of funny. I just set up my 50G tank for the second time (I sold everything and moved once). The first time I set it up was about 1.5 years ago I guess and everyone was criticizing the fact that I did not use a DSB. This time, I figured I'd use the DSB and be all set, but lo and behold, now people tell me it's going to ruin my tank.

I think different people are going to have different experiences and you just have to take advice and do the best you can with it.

 

[Anonymous]

Dunno

After reading it all, if you filter through the kids and trolls, looks like there's some old time reefers that are just going back to ways that worked better for them.

 

[liquid]

Sometime in the next 2-3 months I hope to start a DSB study to measure the total amounts of organics locked up in the sediments from various members' tanks. I've already got a couple people that are willing to donate core samples from their "old" DSB's and Galleon has provided me with a couple resources of measurements taken from actual reefs. It should make for an interesting article for AAOLM.

Shane

 

[Anonymous]

Shane,

I'm looking forward to the article! It would be great to see what is exacly accumulating in detritus and sandbeds.

-Lee

 

[liquid]

I wish I could go into a detailed analysis of what all's in there, but it'll be a qualitative analysis only. Pretty much just summing up the % organic bound in the sediments compared to the total sample weight. The data I've seen suggests that on the average reef there's about 5% of the sediment that's organic in nature. I got roughly the same results when I ashed a core sample of my DSB in the ashing oven the other week.

What I would find interesting is to see how quickly substrates get plugged over time. I will be moving my tank down to the basement in a couple weeks and when I do this, I plan to start my sandbed over. Since I'll be doing this, it will be fairly easy to take periodic samples and see how quickly the substrate is filling. I'll probably document inputs and outputs to the system to see what happens as I feed, do waterchanges, etc.

Shane

 

[Modo]

So has Dr Ron commented towards these DSB nay sayers on RC? I know he is a huge proponent and if not the main driver at one time for DSBs IMO. I know I used his article about grain size, etc.. to set up my last tank and probably will do the same for this one.

What exactly are the "new trends"? Bare bottom tanks, CC (my god no!) or something new?

I have been out of the loop for about 4 months due to a move, a marriage and a promotion. Now I'm back in it full fledge and currently setting up a 90g.

 

[liquid]

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... hlight=dsb

 

[Modo]

Very Interesting. Thanks for the link. I posted to bump the thread back up. I would like to hear about your other core sample that you took that went deeper into the DSB.

 

[Anonymous]

My DSB was moved from my 55 to my 125 and of course I had to add more sand. But my orignal DSB, which lies ontop of the new sand, is about 3 yrs old. If you want a sample in the future let me know.

 

[Bryan Thompson]

Shane,

You really should contact me when you are ready for samples. I have 2 types of sandbeds that share common water through a common sump. One is a 5" DSB the other is a 4" plenum setup. This will provide a contrast between using a plenum and just a DSB.

Bryan

 

[brandon4291]

I have a question about the mineralization of DSB's. Why can't detritus be processed into essentially nothing? It seems that populations of microfauna could reduce waste particles into biologically inert items as each member of the food chain works its turn. I was under the impression that in a true balance all the nitrogen will be accounted for, and thats ~75% of all the waste (in this case algae nutrients) anyway. I try to make the populations of pods and worms heavy through regular feeding and detritus siphoning, then I starve em out for four days in a row and one would be surprised how hard they clean the sand and walls picking for food. IMO, the one thing that crashes a DSB is incorrent detrital load.

This means maintaining the proper populations of sandbed organisms and their microscopic counterparts, as well as a balanced feeding regimen that does not contribute more nutrients to the bed faster than they can be mineralized. I realize natural measures of N03 and phosphate are zilch, but in the captive system this seems to be the best we can strive for. I agree that oolitic beds trap detritus to some extent, but it is micro-fine particles that are physically selected for (and easier/quicker to mineralize) versus heavy particles that get caught in the larger grains. Leftover food particles provide ample surface area and food source for increased bacterial populations, which increases oxygen consumption and production of metabolic by-products. Make the microfauna fight for the food every once in a while with a fast, and I think a DSB will last a long time.

 

[usafresq1]

Thank you for your kind words and prayers Aneneome Buff they mean alot.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey a few prayers is the least I can do.


Now to flip the coin...Brandon speaks of proper balances. The problem is maintaining the balance. I tend to think that the amount of denitrating critters will be in flux. At one point there will be too many critters and at another point there will not be enough. The problem will be keeping them above the minimum at all times. Even with proper feeding there will be dieoff and new birth among the critters. I guess similar to flatworm populations. They reproduce quickly under heavy feedings and dieoff quick when starved. In the end though, I think Brandon is right....DSBs are here to stay.

 

[smoothmove]

crazy idea, does anyone else actually stir their DSB?

I have about 4-5 inches of sand in my 75. I have tried bare bottom and DSB tanks, both with success. I think that the DSB is easier for the nitrate removal and for all of the little critters that end up as food. Every month of so, I reach in and give the first couple of inches a stir. I have never had a negative affect from it, and it keeps the sand from clumping.

I did have a time when the sand was "locking" together into cement clumps. I had turned my CA reactor up too high and boom. If I did not stir the sand, I might not have known until it was too late.