Multi-tiered plumbing setup questions

[npaden]

I am getting down to the final stages of planning my shed/refugium/greenhouse and just wanted to make sure I'm on the right track on my plumbing. I drew up a crappy setup in paint because sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words, especially talking about plumbing designs. Not fancy but functional!

Here is the pic:

I would have the drain in the 135 set with a standpipe at 8" deep in the sump.

Would it make a difference if I set the return from the lowest pump to go to the display instead of the middle sump other than the increase in head loss?

The right side of the middle sump is baffled to prevent excess micro bubbles.

I'm not looking to get this down to perfection yet, just making sure I have my overflow sequence down right and I'm not looking at a catostrophic failure if something fails.

Auto topoff would be in the 100 gallon sump and keep it at a set level that would handle overflows from the other tanks in the event of a power failure.

Pump on the 100 gallon sump would be on a different circuit than the others so if the pump on it failed it would pump into the other setup and there would be enough room in there to handle the extra water.

Thanks, Nathan

 

[taikonaut]

Did not read your reply in detail, but just want to say this regard your overflow failure issue.

If your display does not have the reserve capacity to hold the volume of water in your 100 gal sump *plus* the amount of water not partition off in the 135 gal, you will be in trouble if the pipe that goes from the 135->100 gal is blocked by a snail, for example.

Any blockage in the 135->100 link will essentially drain the 100 gal (~50 gal?) and the smaller partition of the 135 gal (~40 gal?) and the water will end up in the display until it overflows.

 

[npaden]

The intake for the pump in the 100 gallon will be about 2" below the intended water level. That tank has about 5 gallons per inch of water level so let's say that is 15 gallons to go back to the display. Wouldn't it just flow from the display down to the 135 sump? There is plenty of room in the 135 sump for overflow.

I don't understand how a blockage in the drain from the 135 to the 100 would result in any extra water in the display. As long as the 2 drains from the 415 to the 135 were clear it would end up in the 135. Then if I had a power failure I need to be able to handle another 40 gallons or so overflow from the 415 to the 135 and that would be pushing it but at the 8" water level I plan on running in the 135 I can would be able to handle 80 gallons of overflow before spilling.

Nathan

 

[ToeCutter]

I don't see any reason to pump from the middle sump to the display. I would pump only from the lowest tank.

Otherwise, what controls the level in the middle sump? Its overflow to the bottom sump, or its return pump to the display? Seems like an unnecessary complication.

 

[npaden]

I don't want to pump 5,000 gph from the lowest sump to the display. That would be putting a LOT of pressure on the 2" drain that only drops 2 feet from the middle sump to the lowest sump.

Also the part I didn't mention is that the lowest sump is about 60 feet away from the middle sump!

I would control the height of the middle sump with an 8" standpipe in it. 5,000 gph would drain from the display down to the middle sump. The return pump can only handle 4,000 gph so the excess would flow down to the lowest sump.

The water level in the lowest sump would be controlled by an autotopoff float valve.

If the drain from the middle sump to the lower sump can't handle the 1,000 gph flow I can throttle back that pump, but I think a 2" drain should easily handle 1,000 gph even if it is only a 2 foot drop.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[Anonymous]

I don't want to pump 5,000 gph from the lowest sump to the display. That would be putting a LOT of pressure on the 2" drain that only drops 2 feet from the middle sump to the lowest sump.

Couldn't you just run one of the drains from the display tank into the 135gal. and run the other directly into the 100gal sump. That would allow you to run the system entirely from the bottom sump without putting more load on the 2"drain from the 135 to the 100.
Just a thought.

 

[npaden]

PitPat,

That might sound simple but it is actually a lot more dangerous than my current plans. You still have the same multi-tier problem but there will be a lot of variables on which drain might drain faster or slower and it would be hard to get consistent results IMO.

I would be pushing 5,000 gph into the display but the drains would want to split the drainage equally. The 100 gallon sump only has a 1,000 gph pump and would quickly overflow while the 4,000 gph pump would be running dry in no time.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[Anonymous]

I would be pushing 5,000 gph into the display but the drains would want to split the drainage equally. The 100 gallon sump only has a 1,000 gph pump and would quickly overflow while the 4,000 gph pump would be running dry in no time.

FWIW, Nathan

In my proposal you wouldn't be running a return from the 135... have both pumps (or just the larger) running from the lowest sump. That is how I have my set-up, I split the returns from my display so that one of them feeds a 40gal and my Cal. reactor which drain into the 100gal. tub, and the other return feeds a 60gal, then a 25gal, then into the 100gal. tub. My only return is from the lowest sump.
I agree with toe cutter that running a return from a middle sump seems to be trouble waiting to happen, and it doesn't seem necessary.

 

[taikonaut]

>... I don't understand how a blockage in the drain from the 135 to the 100 would result in any extra water in the display. As long as the 2 drains from the 415 to the 135 were clear it would end up in the 135.

The way I understood your drawing is that the middle tank is designed to hold water at certain height. If the drain from 135->100 is blocked, the bottom tank will be empty due to lack of input. The water will either be at the top display tank, or the middle sump. I guess it would be more correct to say that the water will be distribted between them (so that effect won't be as severe), but it is better to plan it so that the top display can hold all the overflow, if possible.

 

[npaden]

PitPat, so what is going to happen in your design to the water that drains from the 415 to the 135? I really don't want to run 2 - 2" drains almost 75 feet just for the heck of it. I am looking for input on my original design. I don't see how the addition of the pump on the middle sump causes any additional "trouble waiting to happen". It will either work or not. IMO running 5,000 gph over 75' of drains is a lot more "trouble waiting to happen" than having a pump on the middle sump.

Talkinaut, the purpose of having 2 - 2" drains is so that if one of them gets completely clogged it would still be able to drain the water I'm flowing through the other one. I don't think I would ever have a situation where both of these drains clogged. I currently wouldn't be able to handle the overflow from my 135 sump if both of my overflows clogged and am okay with that because it is so unlikely they could both clog.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[npaden]

Really the only thing I'm not super confident in is how to make sure water doesn't drain to the lowest sump faster than it can pump out.

5,000 gph drains from display to middle sump, return pump is lower than the stand pipe so it will flow 4,000 gph back to the display and then the extra it can't handle should flow down to the other sump.

If the return pump intake was higher than the stand pipe everything could drain down to the lowest sump so that is the key feature to the middle sump. The return pump must be lower than the stand pipe.

Can we agree on that?

LOL, Nathan

 

[1937 Waco]

Hello Nat:

I think the system will work. Looks like in a power outage all extra water will drain into the lower sump which is big enough to handle the extra water.

In the event of sump 1 pump failure, sump 2 pump will still move water; likewise, if pump 2 fails, pump 1 still moves water.

The snail point is mute as it is a 2" pipe that needs to only flow 1000 gph to keep the pump satified.

It is possible that sump1 maybe a little starved for water as the extra water trys to go to sump2. I feel that this can be regulated by the standpipe in sump1. One other solution would be to partition the standpipe to sump2 on the left side of sump1, then make sure one of the overflows goes to the main part of sump1 and the second goes to the partition that has the standpipe for sump2. This will ensure the pump1 always has water and, in theory, the partition will overflow and contribute to the water needed for pum1.

Just a few more thoughts.

How are the baby clowns doing?

Bob

 

[npaden]

Thanks for the input Bob. I think you may be the only one that understands!

Clowns are doing great I just put an update post on them. Day 6 has come and gone with hardly any losses.

Where at in Montana are you? I grew up in Glasgow.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[1937 Waco]

Nat:

PM you

Bob