turn-key aquariums and the new hobbyist
- Thread starter CiXeL
- Start date
cixel,
"clownfish dont have opinions. i am not an animal activist. corals = plants. they are not people, they are disposable commodities like cattle. captive raised is less harmful to the environment. i dont attempt to personify every animal on earth. sacred cows make the best hamburger. in nature, numbers matter, not the individuals. this is why learning to captive raise everything is very important. "
Will all the people buying cheap tanks have this type of attitude towards corals and fish? If so, I truly fear for the future of the hobby.
Corals ARE animals, and if you see them as disposable commodities perhaps you shouldn't be spending so much money by keeping them.
Ever try to build a stand? It usually ends up costing more than a prefabricated one would. How about a tank? It doesn't take any special skill to glue together acrylic, right? Yet to make a professional looking one will cost almost as much as a wholesale tank just in acrylic. I can understand how some things SEEM to be so simple, like a protein skimmer--its' just a tube with a pump, right? Well, try building one with acrylic tubing and with the same efficiency and ease of use as a professional model. Large diameter extruded acrylic tubing gets VERY expensive.
My only point here is that no one's forcing you into this hobby. It's expensive.
"clownfish dont have opinions. i am not an animal activist. corals = plants. they are not people, they are disposable commodities like cattle. captive raised is less harmful to the environment. i dont attempt to personify every animal on earth. sacred cows make the best hamburger. in nature, numbers matter, not the individuals. this is why learning to captive raise everything is very important. "
Will all the people buying cheap tanks have this type of attitude towards corals and fish? If so, I truly fear for the future of the hobby.
Corals ARE animals, and if you see them as disposable commodities perhaps you shouldn't be spending so much money by keeping them.
Ever try to build a stand? It usually ends up costing more than a prefabricated one would. How about a tank? It doesn't take any special skill to glue together acrylic, right? Yet to make a professional looking one will cost almost as much as a wholesale tank just in acrylic. I can understand how some things SEEM to be so simple, like a protein skimmer--its' just a tube with a pump, right? Well, try building one with acrylic tubing and with the same efficiency and ease of use as a professional model. Large diameter extruded acrylic tubing gets VERY expensive.
My only point here is that no one's forcing you into this hobby. It's expensive.
"Corals ARE animals, and if you see them as disposable commodities perhaps you shouldn't be spending so much money by keeping them."
Don't quote me out of context. I said provided they're captive raised and not wild caught theyre disposable as cattle. (of course i dont treat them that way but one could, yknow? im just lucky to have 'em) They have primitive nervous systems. Many people see them in the same way I do, as plants. Many people see this hobby in the same way I do, as gardening. They're just squishy meat plants! =) Gardening coral is what turned me onto this hobby 3 years ago. You're never going to find me going with the flow and blending in I go against the grain, thats the only way you ever discover anything new. I am a maverick, I am all about unconventional thinking. People like me turn industries upside down and move them in an entirely new direction. Of course, I'm not doing really any of this right now, im just talking and saying we could be saving alot more money by having more people in china building our equipment on the cheap.
I was unemployed for like 7 months and during that span of time I learned how to propagate the hell out of coral because I had no income to spend on livestock. Maybe I'm just bitter cuz my previous job moved to india or china and i want yours to as well. misery loves company i guess. Don't give me an eye to poke, I'll poke it.
I've been in this hobby 3 years. Noones forcing me into it, I'm just saying we're paying more than we should. I do notice theres the same aversion to change or new ideas that there was when I first entered it back then that there is now. Back then it was the stupid stuff like if you dont have a 5,000 gallon tank its cruel and unusual for your fish, bull$hit. Or you can never have enough flow, go look under that newbie threat for what happened. (I put 6 1200 maxijets in a 60 gal turned on continuously). So basically I learned to disregard all but the most trusted hobbyist advice a loooong time ago and that's worked out for me because now I have a beautiful thriving tank. I will continue to poke eyes, sacred cow is the best hamburger, live with it. Just the fact that this thread has generated so many posts means I succeeded. =) By the way matt, whats up with davis, ca and all the reef tank burgleries I've heard about up there?
Don't quote me out of context. I said provided they're captive raised and not wild caught theyre disposable as cattle. (of course i dont treat them that way but one could, yknow? im just lucky to have 'em) They have primitive nervous systems. Many people see them in the same way I do, as plants. Many people see this hobby in the same way I do, as gardening. They're just squishy meat plants! =) Gardening coral is what turned me onto this hobby 3 years ago. You're never going to find me going with the flow and blending in I go against the grain, thats the only way you ever discover anything new. I am a maverick, I am all about unconventional thinking. People like me turn industries upside down and move them in an entirely new direction. Of course, I'm not doing really any of this right now, im just talking and saying we could be saving alot more money by having more people in china building our equipment on the cheap.
I was unemployed for like 7 months and during that span of time I learned how to propagate the hell out of coral because I had no income to spend on livestock. Maybe I'm just bitter cuz my previous job moved to india or china and i want yours to as well. misery loves company i guess. Don't give me an eye to poke, I'll poke it.
I've been in this hobby 3 years. Noones forcing me into it, I'm just saying we're paying more than we should. I do notice theres the same aversion to change or new ideas that there was when I first entered it back then that there is now. Back then it was the stupid stuff like if you dont have a 5,000 gallon tank its cruel and unusual for your fish, bull$hit. Or you can never have enough flow, go look under that newbie threat for what happened. (I put 6 1200 maxijets in a 60 gal turned on continuously). So basically I learned to disregard all but the most trusted hobbyist advice a loooong time ago and that's worked out for me because now I have a beautiful thriving tank. I will continue to poke eyes, sacred cow is the best hamburger, live with it. Just the fact that this thread has generated so many posts means I succeeded. =) By the way matt, whats up with davis, ca and all the reef tank burgleries I've heard about up there?
Your driving force here seems to be money.
Hardly what I would consider going "against the grain" or being a "maverick"
And you're bitter about your job going to India or China. How ironic.
What do you think you're trying to do by getting China to mass produce ready made aquariums?
In your angst to lower prices for your aquarium equipment, please have some respect for the inhabitants.
Mitch
Hardly what I would consider going "against the grain" or being a "maverick"
And you're bitter about your job going to India or China. How ironic.
What do you think you're trying to do by getting China to mass produce ready made aquariums?
In your angst to lower prices for your aquarium equipment, please have some respect for the inhabitants.
Mitch
Too bad so many Americans think this way. Send the business to China so we can pay less. Unfortunately this breeds the big boys, Wal-Mart, target ect. You can go to Wal-Mart and buy toys for the same cost the specialty independents pay the manufacturers.
So many towns have seen Wal-Mart’s come and go. Set p and sell things like toys as a loss leader to make money off the other products. Wal-Mart has become the #1 retailer of groceries in the US, and the #1 retailer of toys. They move into a town sell cheap put all the small stores out of business and then when the town is dry they close down and move on. Leaving no jobs, no money for rebuilding and in the end who wants to try to compete anyway. That is essentially what’s wrong with America; we want everything cheaper no matter the cost.
Selling cheaper equipment is more then just moving the company to china. Its owning your own freighter ships to cut the cost of shipping and transport fees. Having a distribution factory to spread the cheap merchandise around, ect. The only ones who can do this are people like Wal-Mart. Walmart can controll so much of the market they can go to an american conmpany and say we want the belts you sell to JC Penny for 10$ for 5$ but we will buy 100,000. They do it and when a better belt company comes along the original company is dropped by Wal-Mart and is out of business with no one left to sell to.
You can’t get quality products for less money with out repercussions to the country. If you want cheap equipment you best bet is to go with a smaller more American alternative, like www.myreefcreations.com. ANdy does the DIY for you and comes out with a professional skimmer or waht ever for less. This doesnt hurt anyone but still saves you money. You want all of are money to go to anouther coutry then complain when we have no jobs here.
So many towns have seen Wal-Mart’s come and go. Set p and sell things like toys as a loss leader to make money off the other products. Wal-Mart has become the #1 retailer of groceries in the US, and the #1 retailer of toys. They move into a town sell cheap put all the small stores out of business and then when the town is dry they close down and move on. Leaving no jobs, no money for rebuilding and in the end who wants to try to compete anyway. That is essentially what’s wrong with America; we want everything cheaper no matter the cost.
Selling cheaper equipment is more then just moving the company to china. Its owning your own freighter ships to cut the cost of shipping and transport fees. Having a distribution factory to spread the cheap merchandise around, ect. The only ones who can do this are people like Wal-Mart. Walmart can controll so much of the market they can go to an american conmpany and say we want the belts you sell to JC Penny for 10$ for 5$ but we will buy 100,000. They do it and when a better belt company comes along the original company is dropped by Wal-Mart and is out of business with no one left to sell to.
You can’t get quality products for less money with out repercussions to the country. If you want cheap equipment you best bet is to go with a smaller more American alternative, like www.myreefcreations.com. ANdy does the DIY for you and comes out with a professional skimmer or waht ever for less. This doesnt hurt anyone but still saves you money. You want all of are money to go to anouther coutry then complain when we have no jobs here.
walmarts are only evil in small towns not big cities where they function just fine. still, walmart is evil which is why i shop at costco instead of sam's club.
in the long run with 2-3 giant economies running. india, china, and the united states, technology and progress will come more rapidly (since people will be working around the clock) and less expensive. it just sucks that itll take so long to bring them up to our consumer level.
in the long run with 2-3 giant economies running. india, china, and the united states, technology and progress will come more rapidly (since people will be working around the clock) and less expensive. it just sucks that itll take so long to bring them up to our consumer level.
The idea is intriguing, though the discussion seems to have denegraded.
There is no valid reason why it can't be available. Many companies sell Tanks, Stands, Hoods, Sumps. Usually bundled with useless (for reef) lighting. Make no mistake, this won't be cheap, especiall if you want quality.
No reason there can't be a few options available that make the standard Tank, stand combo making the system a turn-key reef system.
W/Hood offer a premounted 2xmh, vho reflector mounted inside. Popular combo... Just add 800? to bill
Reef Ready should come with prefitted plumbing to included sump in the stand, and Plumbed return pump of appropriate rating. Shouldn't just mean an overflow in the tank. 500?
Offer a decent in sump Skimmer
Sump would include mounting bracket for probs (bought separately), Heater (maybe sepearately). 250?
Option for Calcium reactor...
So the 30$ tank, with Stand, hood, lights, sump, pumps, skimmer etc. would now cost 2000$
It was a lost leader anyway, but don't worry there is still the ro/di, top-off, uv, controllers, bulbs, livestock, test equipment, ozonator, powerheads, wavemaker, books, additives, salt and...... to buy!?!
Still a good idea, buying just a tank, is kind of like buying a car without anything under the hood and no tires or transmission. I am no car engineer, I would hate to have to pick out all that stuff with the salesman, Though where choice should be given, there are enough options availble to make that 20K car 40K. Should be the same with aquariums, though much of it is packaged together by the lfs, companies like Oceanic, should consider more complete offerings.
There is no valid reason why it can't be available. Many companies sell Tanks, Stands, Hoods, Sumps. Usually bundled with useless (for reef) lighting. Make no mistake, this won't be cheap, especiall if you want quality.
No reason there can't be a few options available that make the standard Tank, stand combo making the system a turn-key reef system.
W/Hood offer a premounted 2xmh, vho reflector mounted inside. Popular combo... Just add 800? to bill
Reef Ready should come with prefitted plumbing to included sump in the stand, and Plumbed return pump of appropriate rating. Shouldn't just mean an overflow in the tank. 500?
Offer a decent in sump Skimmer
Sump would include mounting bracket for probs (bought separately), Heater (maybe sepearately). 250?
Option for Calcium reactor...
So the 30$ tank, with Stand, hood, lights, sump, pumps, skimmer etc. would now cost 2000$
It was a lost leader anyway, but don't worry there is still the ro/di, top-off, uv, controllers, bulbs, livestock, test equipment, ozonator, powerheads, wavemaker, books, additives, salt and...... to buy!?!
Still a good idea, buying just a tank, is kind of like buying a car without anything under the hood and no tires or transmission. I am no car engineer, I would hate to have to pick out all that stuff with the salesman, Though where choice should be given, there are enough options availble to make that 20K car 40K. Should be the same with aquariums, though much of it is packaged together by the lfs, companies like Oceanic, should consider more complete offerings.
Are saltwater acquariums luxury items ?- A round goldfish bowl is not a luxury item- a saltwater acquarium- with all of its complexity- AND required reliability- is nothing but a luxury- look at what this hobby at this level is attempting to do-this is not raising guppies !!!!
As far as building it overseas- who wants to give up their job- so it can be performed overseas(Saudia Arabia, Korea, Laos, Mexico) for 1/3 the cost- AND quality- I think made in the USA is worth the money- I will gladly pay more for a product made in this country- and protected by our laws-and designed by our engineers- than one made overseas by a foreign company.
How many people in those foreign countries are paying YOUR salary ???
Happy Thankgiving- do not forget why we celebrate Thankgiving-Thursday in Iraq is just another day for terrorists !
As far as building it overseas- who wants to give up their job- so it can be performed overseas(Saudia Arabia, Korea, Laos, Mexico) for 1/3 the cost- AND quality- I think made in the USA is worth the money- I will gladly pay more for a product made in this country- and protected by our laws-and designed by our engineers- than one made overseas by a foreign company.
How many people in those foreign countries are paying YOUR salary ???
Happy Thankgiving- do not forget why we celebrate Thankgiving-Thursday in Iraq is just another day for terrorists !
More power to you, I guess.
BTW, the reef tank burglary that CiXeL is referring to happened at our university's 180 reef tank a few years ago. Someone basically came in at night and stole corals, clams, rock, virtually everything but the sandbed and a carpet anemone. It's just a damn shame someone low enough to do that has probably no idea how to care for the animals.
BTW, the reef tank burglary that CiXeL is referring to happened at our university's 180 reef tank a few years ago. Someone basically came in at night and stole corals, clams, rock, virtually everything but the sandbed and a carpet anemone. It's just a damn shame someone low enough to do that has probably no idea how to care for the animals.
Someone stole a turtle from my college, and back when my dad lent orchids to the Calgary zoo, someone lifted a bunch from there as well - of course I can't deny that I've considered walking into the local LFS, distracting the employees and doing a bit of fragging. 
:lol:
Once CiXeL reenters our dimension he/she will probably realize that his/her vision of this hobby will never come to pass. Thank God. The average Joe/Jane has this idea that fish are an easy pet. Hence why almost everyone has an empty fish tank in their garage. Note "empty". I doubt even 10% of the people who have attempted keeping fish in the past even knew they had to let the tank cycle.
I don't want to open a political debate because debating politics with reefers, particularly reefers from another country, is a total waste of breath. But you folks do need to realize that in order to eliminate the poverty in third-world nations, foreign investment is required. If you guys share Michael Moore's vision of western civilization dominating the rest of the world for all eternity, I pity you.
:lol: Once CiXeL reenters our dimension he/she will probably realize that his/her vision of this hobby will never come to pass. Thank God. The average Joe/Jane has this idea that fish are an easy pet. Hence why almost everyone has an empty fish tank in their garage. Note "empty". I doubt even 10% of the people who have attempted keeping fish in the past even knew they had to let the tank cycle.
I don't want to open a political debate because debating politics with reefers, particularly reefers from another country, is a total waste of breath. But you folks do need to realize that in order to eliminate the poverty in third-world nations, foreign investment is required. If you guys share Michael Moore's vision of western civilization dominating the rest of the world for all eternity, I pity you.
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