Weekly Discussion - Learning curve

[Anonymous]

Weekly Discussion - Learning curve

Most people agree that there is a steep learning curve in this hobby, and that a newbie can be expected to kill several animals in the beginning. Do you agree that such a learning curve exists, and do you find it acceptable?

About the RDO Weekly Discussion:
This discussion is meant to get at your experience and to share information that is in your head, so don't necessarily treat it as information gathering. State your opinion and, if available, use material, anecdotal or otherwise, that will back up your opinion.
Past weekly discussions will be archived in the archives.
If you have topics that you think would be helpful for the RDO community to discuss, please send me a pm or start your own thread! :mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

I agree that ignorance and stupidity exist. If one reads and does the research, there is no reason to kill anything due to a learning curve.
I didn't kill anything due to this problem.

Jim

 

[rwoolley]

A learning curve ONLY exsists if you're learning strictly by trial and error, which of course is a very costly way to learn. Reefkeeping is not a hobby for the impatient. Buying any animal without knowledge is a mistake.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, that's true, BUT in most cases the beginning aquarist doesn't find this place until it's too late. Yes there is a learning curve but only if you learn from your mistakes the FIRST time.

No it's not acceptable. And it's a shame that it happens in the first place. Then again, it isn't always the inexperienced aquarists fault either, they trusted the lfs that sold them whatever just to make money. Now that's unacceptable and unethical.

 

[taikonaut]

Think of it as rearing/raising you kids... after many, many years, you are still learning....

 

[MelanieF]

It should not be acceptable for a newbie to kill inhabitants during a "learning curve". Common sense is severely lacking in our society these days so the fact that this still happens doesn't surprise me. If an ignorant person goes out and spends thousands of dollars on stock and due to improper research loses everything there's only one direction they can point their finger.

The only inhabitants that I have lost were:

1 Royal Gramma - X kept tank
1 Longnose Hawk - again, X kept tank
3 Yellowtail Damsels - mantis shrimp
1 Longnose Butterfly - Bacterial infection during quarantine.
1 Atlantic Blue Tang - Long power outage while I was at work likely cause as tank params went haywire
1 Kole Tang - again w/ the power outage.
1 Purple Star - mantis shrimp

None of the above were avoidable w/ the exception of the 2 Tangs and god knows I don't have the $$$ to go buy a generator.

All of this proves that research WILL avoid unnecessary deaths and save you $$$.

 

[playfair]

With so much information readily available, I don't think negotiating the learning curve should be much of an issue; read what you can, get to know the people who you respect (either in person or virtually), and do what they do

Unfortunately, it is an issue, and it sure would be nice if we could self-regulate needless losses before the government has to step in.

I think that poor information is the biggest contributor. Whether it starts at the LFS or the internet, those who seek the knowledge beforehand often are overwhelmed. Noone likes feeling intimidated, but reef keeping isn't exactly rocket science either. The correct, respectful approach is what sets the good apart from the ugly. Knowledge and flexibility are key and should be taught from day one, but not to the extent that it's overwhelming. LFS's who don't want to loose a customer and don't worry about long-term success are largely at fault.

Of course, there's ignorance as well. There's a reason why you haven't seen the pretty tube sponge or colorful gorgonian at your LFS in any mature systems, and it's not because they aren't widely available. And what makes us think just because ONE guy has had an elegance for 3 yrs that we will when the majority can't? I love how so many books post care levels on a scale of 1 to 10... In my limited experience, either corals fair well in captivity, or they don't, so it should be a T or an F (with a couple exceptions of course). Too bad many consider these deaths to be part of the "learning curve".

 

[Jeff CC]

Trial and error is the nature of this hobby. Even with the most diligent research, losses will occur. Our responsibility as reefkeepers is to do our best to minimize these losses- while learning as much as possible- and passing that knowledge on to to others.

 

[Carpentersreef]

The problem is...is who do you listen to when you've got an empty glass box in front of you?
...A bad LFS that tells you what you want to hear?
...or maybe you only hear what you want to hear?
...someone with a bunch of letters behind his/her name?
...someone with a lot of BB posts?

and meanwhile, you've got to decide:
BB or DSB
UGF?
Berlin method?
Trickle filter?
MH, VHO, PC, SE or DE, NO and what colour rating?
Water chemistry and how it can change....
Corals can attack each other?

With fish and aquarium equipment being so easy to come by, I'll bet that 95% of people getting into reef keeping are learning by trial and error.

Maturity and patience are probably the two best qualities that a reefkeeper can have.

Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

The only inhabitants that I have lost were:

1 Royal Gramma - X kept tank
1 Longnose Hawk - again, X kept tank
3 Yellowtail Damsels - mantis shrimp
1 Longnose Butterfly - Bacterial infection during quarantine.
1 Atlantic Blue Tang - Long power outage while I was at work likely cause as tank params went haywire
1 Kole Tang - again w/ the power outage.
1 Purple Star - mantis shrimp

None of the above were avoidable w/ the exception of the 2 Tangs and god knows I don't have the $$$ to go buy a generator.

All of this proves that research WILL avoid unnecessary deaths and save you $$$.

Everyone can rationalize why the deaths they caused are OK, but others aren't. What is a necessary death in this hobby?

 

[jandree22]

everyone's blowin off about research research research. You know what, the fact that ppl on this site are saying that is an extremely biased comment. By being a member of this site, and especially posting on the boards, we are all deep into researching animals and the hobby.

HOWEVER, you gotta consider that probably 90% of reefers never come here. Another 25-50% never picked up a book or researched into what they're doing. I will admit that I killed a lot of fish when I started out. I originally was into freshwater aquariums, and I even had bad habits with them, and I just carried them over here. Now, what happened is because I'm addicted to message boards, I found this site and learned, A LOT!

Bottom line, like I said, it's biased to think it's common sense that people should research. Many take what their LFS says as gospel and therefore they put a Nemo and a Dory together in a 20gal. It's definately not a good thing, and I'm by no means condoning it. I feel horrible for harming those first fish when I started out, and I wish I WOULD have picked up a book and learned everything before starting. BUT I thought I knew it all from keeping freshwater tanks, I was arrogant, and as a result, fish died.

It sucks, but it happens. More LFS need to push good books so that n00b's learn from the get'go. I'm sorry for how I started out...but there just needs to be a much stronger source of learning immediately when starting the hobby.

 

[jandree22]

The only inhabitants that I have lost were:

1 Royal Gramma - X kept tank
1 Longnose Hawk - again, X kept tank
3 Yellowtail Damsels - mantis shrimp
1 Longnose Butterfly - Bacterial infection during quarantine.
1 Atlantic Blue Tang - Long power outage while I was at work likely cause as tank params went haywire
1 Kole Tang - again w/ the power outage.
1 Purple Star - mantis shrimp

None of the above were avoidable w/ the exception of the 2 Tangs and god knows I don't have the $$$ to go buy a generator.

All of this proves that research WILL avoid unnecessary deaths and save you $$$.

Everyone can rationalize why the deaths they caused are OK, but others aren't. What is a necessary death in this hobby?

Exactly, Melbelle1820, not meaning to be offensive but to just make a point.... There's several ways you could've treated your LR to ensure no mantis shrimps were goin in you system, therefore saving 4 lives in your system. That was definately avoidable and if you would've done more research into LR treatment, you could've elimated that problem.

I agree, learning is a continuing process, and even if you read every book, there's always gonna be some element of learning done through T&E, it simply can't be avoided. :roll:

 

[MelanieF]

Jandree22 and Righty,

I didn't find your posts offensive at all but I do want to point out that mantis shrimp kill things in nature as well so the deaths from the 2 mantis in my rock weren't "due to human error" or a "learning curve". I did research treatment of live rock before buying it and decided I would rather keep as much of the fauna alive as possible.

The point of my post was that deaths can happen even when you've done research. In my case nature (mantis shrimp), lack of $$$ for a generator, and the unlucky purchase of a fish w/ a bacterial infection that had no visible signs were the factors that worked against me. Those factors are all quite different than "I didn't know ammonia could kill my fish" or "Gee, why are my corals dying, all I did was put copper in the tank". The point of this thread is whether or not deaths due to a learning curve are acceptable.

I might have been better off just saying I agree w/ Jim M and Jeff CC and left out the details of my experience.

I'm sorry if I interpreted the meaning of this thread wrong... :lol:

P.S. Righty, When I mentioned unnecessary deaths I wasn't implying that any are necessary. What I meant was that there's a difference between ignorance and trying to apply as much research as possible but still making a mistake. I can guarantee everyone here has made a mistake at some point.

My point: If we find it acceptable for newbies to "kill several animals in the beginning", then maybe newcomers will be less inclined to do research.

Mel

 

[Anonymous]

Jandree22 and Righty,

I didn't find your posts offensive at all but I do want to point out that mantis shrimp kill things in nature as well so the deaths from the 2 mantis in my rock weren't "due to human error" or a "learning curve". I did research treatment of live rock before buying it and decided I would rather keep as much of the fauna alive as possible.

I understand what you are saying. You knew the risks, and found them acceptable.
Oh, it doesn't matter that mantis shrimp kill things in nature. If that were a good reason, anyone could use it for killing anything.

The point of my post was that deaths can happen even when you've done research.

You bet they can - and do. That is the learning curve. I think no matter how well read or researched someone is, odds are they are going to have a loss due to something they miscalculated.

I might have been better off just saying I agree w/ Jim M and Jeff CC and left out the details of my experience.

No! The details help all of us to learn and thank you for posting them.

I'm sorry if I interpreted the meaning of this thread wrong... :lol:

You didn't!

P.S. Righty, When I mentioned unnecessary deaths I wasn't implying that any are necessary. What I meant was that there's a difference between ignorance and trying to apply as much research as possible but still making a mistake. I can guarantee everyone here has made a mistake at some point.

You betcha. However, since this is the weekly discussion, lets push a little. Things will still prolly die when someone starts out, regardless of how much research they have done, and some people kill lots of things because they did little research. How much death is acceptable? Are the reasons for the death important? If someone has done lots of research, and makes a mistake with the auto top off and nukes an entire stocked tank, is that less bad than someone who nukes a tank without the research?

My point: If we find it acceptable for newbies to "kill several animals in the beginning", then maybe newcomers will be less inclined to do research.

But it seems that we do find it acceptable, as long as they have done their research.

 

[MelanieF]

Hmmm...

I think that my level of what is acceptable revolves around someone's ability to learn from mistakes. If a newbie listens to the LFS, overstocks the tank, doesn't test params, etc... somehow this can be acceptable as long as they learn from that experience and make a serious attempt to never let it happen again. I think that the conscientious approach is the only one I will give my acceptance to. If a newbie keeps buying more and more fish just to have them keep dying then I will limit my thoughts on that to UNACCEPTABLE. At that point they should not be allowed to buy more. (much like some people should have their driver's licenses taken away for good if they obviously can't learn) :wink:

I think there should be stricter guidelines for any employee to follow if they deal w/ any kind of animal. I don't know how many Petco employees I've royally ticked off when I've interrupted their "sale" and talked someone out of putting 3 clownfish in a 10 gallon tank they're setting up the same night among other insane scenarios. 8O I often give the customers this web address so they can do more research before committing homicide on the poor fishies and then I quietly exit the store and head to my LFS that knows what they're talking about. Maybe I should start wearing a cape when I go in... :roll:

 

[hillbilly]

After reading the forums for some time now, I'm convinced some newbies have no clue how to care for a reef or any other type of aquarium. It seems some get bad advice from a LFS who is just trying to sell them as much stuff as possible, or they get no advice at all, and ask for help when things start dying. I don't think it's a normal learning curve to kill a bunch of livestock in the begining. With a good understanding of the basics, and knowledge beforehand of the creatures needs, die offs would not happen due to the aquarist's screw ups.I have always researched the needs of creatures I wanted before I bought them. By doing this, I can count the number of new creatures lost on one hand over a dozen or more years.

 

[RustySnail]

There is a HUGE learning curve in this hobby. Many people setup reef tanks after reading a few books and have initial success with a great looking tank and no understanding of the amount of maintenance or work required to keep the tank up. No amount of reading can prepare you for the 'work' involved in the actual upkeep and attention that a reef tank requires.

There is more than one type of 'killing' in my opinion. One is from total ignorance (the sales industry is largely responsible for this). Total ignorance also exists on behalf of the salespeople in many stores. Instead of selling tanks/equipment to a new hobbiest they should send them home with loaner books. There was only one store I knew of that had books and a reading area to read before delving into the hobby (a store that went out of business a few years ago).

Another type of 'killing' is due to not knowing the specific requirements of the animals we try to keep. Call it husbandry ignorance. We know 'general' feeding/lighting water quality requirements of corals; but not specific requirements for each. Some corals will not survive this generalization. Case in point: goniopora. Very abundant in the wild; but many types are difficult to keep in home aquaria. We generalize thes as 'do not buy' but the industry should label them 'do not collect' until more is known about how to keep them. Same goes for the current situation with elegance corals.

Many situations where corals or fish are lost is a 'lesson learned'. System setup; bad tank params; predation; parasites (like the new dreaded red bugs); tank crash; fish that suddenly start to 'munch' corals; etc. The dynamics of our reef tanks lead to many situations where loss occurs. Simply learning how to diagnose the problem is part of the learning curve.

There are also levels of ignorance. You can be an experienced keeper of FO; yet know nothing about keeping corals. You can be an experienced reefkeeper and know nothing about what it takes to keep SPS. Hopefully your prior experience (and continued learning) prepares you for going to the next 'level'; but still there is a learning curve where mistakes will be made and animals likely lost. It's part of this hobby; we need to accept it and do the best we can.

JMHO...

 

[Anonymous]

I started keeping marine animals 15 years ago. I have personally through ignorance and stupidity killed more fish than I care to remember. I actually cringe when I think about it. Yellow tang and a mandarin in a 29? Oh sure. UGF? Worked fine on my cichlid tanks. Look isnt that (insert coral name here) pretty I think I'll buy it, etc etc etc.

There wasn't much out there in terms of information. No internet, and until the Berlin method became mainstream there wasn't much in the way of research going on. I still have an old book that shows slate bottomed tanks w/metal edges used for "saltwater habitats" and how to collect your own specimens.

But even as I learned what was available, crashes still happened in my tanks, and critters died. I became so frustrated with my own learning curve that I quit for years.

When I returned to the hobby 4 years ago, I was amazed there was so much information. The deaths I have incurred, other than presumed old age and a massive power out, have been minimal.

So, the original question do I find that learning curve exists? Oh yeah.

Is it acceptable? As long as you learn from it, yes.

What about needless deaths? Unfortunately they do occur, I read somewhere that the most abused "pets" in terms of neglect, etc. are fish, due mostly to ignorance.

 

[DaGoldenChild]

i believe the learning curve exists even if a hobbyist has the researched and gained all the knowledge he/she needs to be "sucessful" because we are working with living things whether it be inverts, coral, or fish etc... there is always a learning curve because just like humans no animal is the same although they may have similar tendencies we can all learn from they are still different which means ever hobbyist must learn from their experiences with each individual animal,

do i believe this learning curve is acceptable? like most have said already as long as you learn from it if you dont learn anything from it then every death becomes a needless one and maybe this is the hobby that some should be pursuing