• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

A

Anonymous

Guest
seamaiden":18ebmy6i said:
This is all well and good, Mr. Mohr, but.. hey, you're not related to Jay Mohr, are you? Cuz, if you are, that guy is funny as hell!

Not that I'm aware of as he's never sought me out to buy me a beer. btw I don't have much of a sense of humor though what I have is warped. :lol:
Why is he from Argentina?

Where was I..? Oh yeah, taxonomy is all well and good, but what can you offer in terms of husbandry techniques? I'm thinking that if you can keep sponges alright, you might be on the right track for tunies.

Not necessarily though even though they've been mistakenly related, care is similar but not the same. Maybe we'll find out tomorrow. :wink:

Regards,
David Mohr
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
davidmohr":3s3j70at said:
seamaiden":3s3j70at said:
This is all well and good, Mr. Mohr, but.. hey, you're not related to Jay Mohr, are you? Cuz, if you are, that guy is funny as hell!

Not that I'm aware of as he's never sought me out to buy me a beer. btw I don't have much of a sense of humor though what I have is warped. :lol:
Why is he from Argentina?

Regards,
David Mohr

I don't know, why is Jay Mohr from Argentina? :D

<sm, anxiously awaiting the answers to all questions>
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
For those that are still interested let's now look at some of the confusion in Taxonomy. :) I've shown the Linnaean System though now in the last few years we now have evolutionary taxonomy, numerical taxonomy and cladism.
Evolutionary Taxonomy was used up thru the 1970's working with fossil material. They first used morpological resemblance the extent to which animals resembled each other. Second they used phylogenic relationships the way animals related to each other in the terms of a recent common ancestor.
The problem with this method is the limitations of fossils and the subjectivity of classification by observations.
Numerical Taxonomy uses quantified observations of animals in an attempt to decide natural groupings. If enough characteristics are measured, quantified and computed they can determine what are called cluster scatters which are used to measure distances between them showing the measure of their differences. However this still relies on subjectivity in the way to analyze the measurements taken and possibly give more weight to more important characteristics.
Cladism is a school of taxonomy founded about 1966 and tends to be the most effective way of determining phylogeny. It relies on polygenetic criteria alone by showing how features shared by organisms display a hierarchical pattern in nature which is evident in the distribution of characteristics shared amongst organisms. Cladism assumes that the recency of common origin can be shown by shared derived characteristics which in closely related groups would distinguish that group from other.
The central concept of cladism is that any characteristic is either derived or primitive. An example being: all vertebrates have backbones so the possesion of a backbone is primitive to all vetebrates and is not an indication of any relationship between any groups or individual vetebrates.
A primitive characteristic of vetebrates is however a derived characteristic compared to invertebrates. The sharing of both derived and primitive characteristics establish the relative status of particular groups of characteristics within organisms.
Below is what is called a cladogram.


A
|
X-----------B
|
|
Y-----------C
|
|
Z-----------D

This is a method to determine the recency of common origin in related taxa based on derived and primitive characteristics.
Taxa A and B share a unique common ancestor so are termed sister groups. They share an evolutionary novelty not possesed by taxon C. C however is a sister group of the combination of taxa A and B. D is also a sister group of the combination of the taxa A, B and C.
In the construction of cladistic analysis the taxonomist assumes that dichotomous branching has occured in each linneage and compiles an unweighted character database

There are 3 kinds of cladistic groupings :
Monophyletic groups: containing a common ancestor and all its descendents (A B C D and X Y Z ) or ( A B and X).
Paraphyletic groups: descending from a common ancestor ( probably extinct which is called a stem group. ( A B but not the extinct X)
Polyphyletic groups: results of convergent evolution. These are descended from different ancestors though they may look similar and are in effect an artificial grouping as far as a shared common ancestor with shared characteristics.

(end of third post)
 

ricky1414

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Ummm...yeah :?
I was a hisory major in college, no biology beyond the basic freshman requirements. You wanna dumb all that stuff down for us simpleton folks, please? :wink:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Sorry let me see if I can try to simplify this.
Traditional taxonomy catagorizes living things based on certain types of morphological similarities. A fish has a tail and so does a cat does this mean they are closely related? Certain trates are developed by different animals that may be distant relatives in terms of ancestral lineage. So how, when and why many animals have similar anatomical structures does this make them related or not?
If a shared similarity such as hooked claw was derived from a common ancestor it is call *Homology*. These are applied and tested against a group of animals such as starfish, urchins and sand dollars. Homologies could be used to trace a certain group back to its common ancestor of all life though it's highly impratical and says nothing about the evolution of species. We then attempt to show how closely related organisms are based on their divergence from the most recent ancestor. Homologies that are derived from the most recent ancestor of a particular group or organisms are called * Shared Derived Characters*. Shared derived characters are unique to that particular group and can distinguish it from more distant ancestors. Other characteristics shared with more distant common ancestors and may not be present in other groups are called *Shared Primitive Characters*. i.e. the presence of a backbone and hair in mammalian group. All mammals have both characters but only the hair characteristic distinguishes mammals from all other vertebrates (shared derived character ) Other mammals possess a backbone ( primitive character ). Taking it further the presence of a backbone is a shared derived character when applied to the whole vertebrate group because it is unique to that group and the result of the most recent ancestor. The status of a particular characteristic is dependent on how inclusive that group is.
The Linnaean System focuses on physical and assumed similarities while the Cladistic System is an attempt to organize groups or species by their common ancestors.
I showed the 3 groups ( clades ) in the third post.
A monophyletic clade is one that includes a common ancestor and all it's descendents. A paraphyletic clade is one that includes a common ancestor and only some of the descendents and a polyphyletric clade is one that includes the descendents but not the common ancestor.
Not all similar characteristics are derived from a common ancestor. The wings of a bird and those of a bat are similar characteristics in that they're both wings and serve the purpose of flight but are not homologous because they did not evolve from a common ancestor. These similarities are called *Anologies* as they occur when two species develope similar traits but not due to a common ancestor ( convergent evolution ). Analogies are usually adaptations to similar environments or ecological niches.
The job of the Systemetist is to determine the difference between homology and analogy and to determine why and when certain traits developed in species. While fossil records are incomplete they do provide insight into the behavior and evolution of many species Soft and hard tissue can be used to determine size, gender, weight, diet, etc.
With the advent of molecular analysis it is now possible to determine when a particular characteristic developed in a species. This is commonly done by comparing sequences of nucleotides in DNA and RNA, which program corresponding sequences of amino acids in protiens. Because nucleotide sequences are inhereted the degree of similarity of sequences between two species indicates how recent their split from a common ancestor. Each of the nucleotide positions in a segment of DNA represents inherent characteristics dispayed in the form of one of four DNA bases ( Thymine, Guanine, Cytosine and Adenine). In these analysis homologous regions in the sequences of two species" DNA are 10,000 nucleotides long and provide 10,000 points of reference. This has led to the reclassification of many species into separate species.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Originally Linnaeus had Urochodata Tunicates classified in the Phylum as Molluscoidea In 1816 Lamarck used the name Tunicata to accommodate Ascidians, Palps and Pyrosoma. Milne Edwards (1843) added Bryoza to the Class Tunicata in Molluscoidae and Hancock ( 1850) added Brachiopoda to the Bryoza and Tunicata in Molluscoidae. Finally Huxley (1851) recognized the Tunicata as a distinct phylogenetic entity separate from Mollusca, Bryozoa and Brachiopodawhich was later supported by Bronn(1862). Kowalewsky (1866) recognized a chordate affinity in the notochord-like cells in the larval tail and group Tunicata was regarded as a subphylum of Chordata. The name Urochordata was not used until Balfour(1881) created it as a replacement name for Tunicata presumably to emphasise the chordate affinity.
There are still ongoing squabbles over various other names Balfour penned but I wont go into those. :) The current people working on the Ascidians is full of characters and extremely vocal.
During a time Porifera ( sponges ) were classified as Enchinoderms because of the spicules.
Originally the Phylum Porifera didn't exist.
Now in the Origin and Evolution of Animals (Metazoa) as Matt was posting about ( protosomes and deuterostomes ) I'm going to leave that for the next post as I'm about "Taxed" out at the moment. :wink:
(end of fourth post)
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hhmm.. all that, and I still have no idea why Jay Mohr is Argentinian... :|

Taxed out.. LOULE!!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Me either. Do you know why Jay Mohr is from Argentina? I should do a Google, I s'pose. Been waaay too busy.

Ya know, he is damn funny. 8)
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Now if anyone is still interested as Matt began posting about protostomes, deuterstomes, etc.
This is the clade: Bilaterians
All the members of this clade possess bilateral symmetry ( dorsal-ventral and left-right axis ). They are tryloblastic (they have 3 tissue layers: ectoderm, mesoderm and endoderm ).
The clade: Bilaterians contains 4 clades: the protostomia, deuterostomia, Cnidarians ( phylum Cnidaria ) and Sponges ( phylum Porifera ).
Protostomia means "first mouth" because the mouth develops from the first openning in the gut ( blastopore ) The body cavity ( coelom ) forms from a split in the embryonic middle tissue (mesoderm). The larva of Protostomes are called trochophores. In early divisions in cells they are diagonal to the polar axis ( a spiral arrangement of cells called spiral cleavage ).
Deuterostomia means "second mouth" because the mouth develops from the second openning into the embryonic gut. The first openning develops into the anus. The body cavity ( coelom) develops from buds off the gut.
In deuterosome early divisions in cells are perpendicular to the polar axis (one above the other called radial cleavage ).
Deuterostomes contain three phyla of concern to us, the phylum Cordata, phylum Hemichordata ( Acorn Worms ) and the phylum Echinodermata ( urchins, starfish, cucumbers, etc. ). Branched off from the phylum Chordata are the phylum Vertebrata, Craniata, Amphioxus ( subphylum Cephalochordata ) and Tunicata.
Protostomes contain the clade Ecdysozoans and clade Lophotrochozoans. The clade Ecdysozoans contains two phyla of concern to aquarists, the phylum Nematoda ( Roundworms) and phylum Arthropoda. The clade Lophotrochozoans contains three phyla of concern to aquarists, the phylum Platyhelminthes ( Flatworms ), phylum Annelida ( Clam Worms ), and phylum Mollusca .
So Cnidarians and Porifera are members of Bilaterians but are not protostomia, deuterostomia, lophotrochozoans or ecdysozoans.
If you looked a cladogram of this you'd see that Homo Sapiens are more closely related to Tunicata ( Tunicates, Sea Squirts ) than they are to Echinodermata though Echinodermata are still related to Tunicata distantly.
Porifera and Cnidaria are probably very distantly related to Tunicata, Echinodermata and Homo Sapien but to find the first common ancestor would take fossils from that organism.
I hope I didn't bore you to death and maybe Matt wants to go into Coelomates and Pseudocoelomates.

Regards,
David Mohr
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I was under the impression that Cnidaria was not in Bilateria, but Radiata?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Matt_Wandell":36ilbygz said:
I was under the impression that Cnidaria was not in Bilateria, but Radiata?

They are both depending on the species.
They are predominately radial however in some species of Anemones there is only one plane through the tubular body that divides it into two equal halves ( bilateral symmetry ).
Welcome to the ever changing world of taxonomy ( and hair pulling ) :wink:

Regards,
David Mohr
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Tell me about it. My "Invertebrates" book (Brusca and Brusca) is from 2003, and is a bit different than the stuff you just listed. Seems like it changes quite frequently.
 

hdtran

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Up until fairly recently (within the past 20 yrs, I think), taxonomy was decidedly Linnean in nature. Although the fundamental paradigm of biology (DNA->RNA->protein) has been known for 50 yrs, it wasn't until fairly recently that evolutionary biologists decided to try sequencing various genes to further elucidate phylogeny (did I spell that right?).

From looking at David Mohr's cladogram, I am very much reminded of RCS (revision control system in this particular context, not reaction control system).

I think the taxonomy paradigm is going over to 'diff' for gene sequences both in nucleus and mitochondrial DNA.

Matt & David, would you agree that taxonomy (name and classification of species) has always attempted to capture phylogeny (relatedness of species)?

Regarding Seamaiden's question(s), (1), I have no idea who Jay Mohr is, and (2) I have all sorts of unknown critters growing in dark places of my tank, and they look like 1/4" size sponges or tunicates. I do nothing special to feed them. (But I do need to clean out my skimmer pump; skimmer pump definitely is slowing down).
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Jay Mohr is a comedian and actor. He also hosted a sports show for a little while (football season, here I come!). I had no idea he was Argentinian, though I believe Mr. Mohr is pulling my leg. Too bad it won't make me taller.. or at least a little more long-legged.

The taxonomy will likely continue to evolve for the next decade, maybe even longer (just a gut feel on my part). However, ultimately the thread goes back to care and husbandry of this alien group of beings. I've always thought that if we ever found alien life forms on other planets it might most be like tunicates.

So, Hy, et al, if you could give a basic rundown of the system, filtration, whether or not there's a refugium, chemistry, etc., that would probably be quite helpful. Oh yes! Could you get some photos of them posted for us?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
hdtran":1qcdc3oi said:
would you agree that taxonomy (name and classification of species) has always attempted to capture phylogeny (relatedness of species)?

Yes you are correct as taxonomy is part of a scientific practice called systematics ( studying the relationships between organisms ), not the differences.

seamaiden":1qcdc3oi said:
Jay Mohr is a comedian and actor. I had no idea he was Argentinian, though I believe Mr. Mohr is pulling my leg.

I'm not pulling anyone's leg, it seems you're pulling your own. :) Look back at my post and reread it. :) I asked the question: " Why is he from Argentina ?" The reason to that question has been in other posts of mine but then no one would ever read all my posts.:) I do find the vision of you scratching your head wondering why Jay Mohr is Argentinian amusing though; hence most people think my sense of humor is warped.
I would like to see pics of Hy's critters as me thinks we're probably talking about different critters than Tunicata.

Regards,
David Mohr
 

hdtran

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
David,

My critters may be sponges as opposed to tunicates. But I would have a hard time taking pictures, as they like to be in the dark ;)

I'll do my best when I get my new Mag-3 (I need to seriously clean my current pump, and rather than leaving the tank unskimmed, I'll just swap pumps in & out...)

Hy
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
davidmohr":20hhmxxh said:
seamaiden":20hhmxxh said:
Jay Mohr is a comedian and actor. I had no idea he was Argentinian, though I believe Mr. Mohr is pulling my leg.

I'm not pulling anyone's leg, it seems you're pulling your own. :) Look back at my post and reread it. :) I asked the question: " Why is he from Argentina ?" The reason to that question has been in other posts of mine but then no one would ever read all my posts.:) I do find the vision of you scratching your head wondering why Jay Mohr is Argentinian amusing though; hence most people think my sense of humor is warped.

Regards,
David Mohr

Ahh.. 8) I'm glad you appreciate my sense of humor. Forgive me, but you lent yourself so well. :)
 

John_Brandt

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
guitar_cat.jpg
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top