have anyone successfull keep coral using tap water.

[iphy]

Apophis924,

Some fair comments. However, the other thing I am wondering about is the copper pipes -- the toxic metals. I do know that copper is extremely friendly about sharing itself with everything even near it. A buddy of mine works in the R&D labs at Intel and I have heard some serious horror stories about copper contamination. In the US, copper pipes are common.

I dunno. As you say, I am not in a rush to fix what is not broken. I tend to be a few steps behind the times when it comes to my aquariums, anyway. Over the years this has saved me from some fads; so I am not saying this as a bad thing.

 

[Anonymous]

Using tap water and natural ocean water are two completely different issues. I use ocean water but wouldn't let a drop of my tap water get anywhere near my tanks. It has trace amounts of selenium and arsenic in it. Enough said. To each his own I guess.

 

[Tackett]

chances are any serious changes in your water chemistry you will know about.

False, as far as I know. I used to work closely with the EPA and DEP and I guaruntee those results are not accurate, nor are they up to date. They will test it to make sure that no one will die drinking it and thats the end of it. This goes with everything else the government does, if they dont think the general public gives a rats ass about it, they wont spend the money to post it or worry about the results when they do decide to release some information.

But I think the point here is totally missed. Like I said earlier, You can get away with it IF and only IF, you know what you are doing, or you are extremely lucky. Nothing in this world is impossible, I just wouldnt advise it and I dont think anyone with any sense should either. If you were pissing in your tank twice a week and was somehow able to sustain a thriving reef, would you go around advising for all within earshot that pissing in your tank is the best reefing practice? I used tap in my tanks untill switching to RO water and they looked and smelled like a sewage treatment plant. In spite of having Macros blooming out the buttocks.

 

[Tackett]

I would especially advise against it if someone had well water, because most of the time, well water contains arsenic, selenium, aluminum and about fifty other nastys.

 

[Apophis924]

Well i go with what works. And tap water works for me. I went the RO/DI route and i was not happy with the results. Switched back to tap water and I am much more statisfied. Since we cannot test for all these so called toxic metals like cobalt zinc selenium ,arsenic etc etc ,,,in the standard home hobby test kit with any degree of percision or accuracy, How can one be sure that the RO/DI processes is complete? a TDS meter can give you halfway decent reading but one can not be sure. Taking the word of the compnnay that sells these RO/DI makers is not the best of unbiased information. You can spout out exotic toixc metals and algea blooms, animals dying, massive tank crashes and corals being "stressed' out and for YOUR tank that may be thre case But I am not taking care of your tank and your tank is not my concern and i know nothing of your tanks. I am saying what works for me and Tap water is the way i go. Each tank and each situationis different. If someone ask me what i use i tell them tap water and why if they ask what should they use, I will tell them do your homework (like i did) and monitor and compare your results (like i do) OR you can just read a three or 4 page add by some RO/DI dealer and take their word at face value. Now RO/DI water does have a use, i use it in my Iron, to Dilute my radiator fluid, washing windows and to remove satl creep from time to time. It also very good for flushing out the expresso maker.

 

[HClH2OFish]

My stance is that if it's working for you, great!
I'm not gonna say don't do it, or that you can't do it since those are both false. I *will* say that I do use RO/DI to top off my tanks. I also used natural ocean water when I recently moved (with excellent results btw)
As far as the tap water debate goes, I *may* use prime and top off if I need to, but I'll do all I can to prevent having to do that. Where I live there are tons of pollutants in the water (including Perchlorate - a chemical used in rocket motors and air bag manufacturing)
It's also treated with ferric chlorate in one of the steps which causes suspended particles to coagulate and increase the efficiency of the filters - I have no idea what effect this would have on corals/clams/inverts and for myself, I don't wanna find out. I also just moved to a more urban area, so now I have run off from the farmland around here as well.

Once I get my larger tank setup and get some corals/clams I'll definitely go with RO/DI instead of tap, mainly as a precaution which is one that I'm willing to deal with. I'd rather strip the water and add what I know I want, instead of having things in there that I don't want.

Will I tell someone it's impossible to use tap? Heck no, that's patently false. I *will* tell someone that in MY OPINION, RO/DI would be better, if for nothing more than precautionary measures.

I think that the tapwater debate is in the same vein as most of the debates in reefing. Tapwater or RO/DI? DSB or barebottom? Skimmers or skimmerless?

With all of these arguments, you'll get differing opinions varying from the extremes (your loose change crowd for example) to those that are a bit more diplomatic.The main concern I think most have been trying to get across is that for someone to tell a NEW person that RO/DI is simply expensive and a waste of time is irresponsible. The same goes for someone telling that same person that tap water will lead to disaster.

If the new person has a good understanding of water chemistry in a saltwater tank, no worries...they can figure out the risks/benefits on their own. If someone is asking, answer with your experiences and your opinion, but don't say that because *you've* had good luck with it that your method is the *only* way to go. A newbie needs to be able to see both sides of the equation, based on peoples experiences and with a better understanding of *what* the differences between the two are. They can then make a more knowledgeable decision on their own.

We all (or most of us anyway) have some kind of saltwater tank already, and we all have our different experiences. Some will have had bad luck with RO/DI, some will have had RO/DI clear up issues in their tanks.
Same with skimmers, DSBs, keeping certain animals, etc.

Entering into the equation is good reefkeeping practices. Thru the years, there has developed certain methods/techniques that have been shown to work, plain and simple. This doesn't mean there aren't other ways, or that someones radical "Gravity fed, monkey fur, rainmaking sprinkler of joyous filtration' isn't gonna work. BUT...to those running that 'special' filter, you need to realize that doing something that varies from the norm or hasn't been setup long enough to say it's gonna work or not is *not* something to advocate to newbies, regardless of your experiences with it.

BTW, this shouldn't be considered a rant....just a bit of 'deep thinking' during some downtime at work.

And as always...this is just my .02....your mileage may vary

 

[Anonymous]

If someone ask me what i use i tell them tap water and why if they ask what should they use, I will tell them do your homework (like i did) and monitor and compare your results

I like that answer very much. The only thing I would add is that heavy metal contamination typically takes years to show up.

 

[Tackett]

Since we cannot test for all these so called toxic metals like cobalt zinc selenium ,arsenic etc etc ,,,in the standard home hobby test kit with any degree of percision or accuracy, How can one be sure that the RO/DI processes is complete?

I was so anal about my source water when fighting the nasty hair algae, that I took a sample of the source water I was going to use, (ro/di) and a sample of my tap water and had it tested for every ion under the sun, and actually did a full pHC on both samples. I know a water laboratory that does work for mines around here. Mines have to have permits to discharge water into any stream, and those permits include water monitoring specifically for arsenic, selenium, manganese, cobalt, etc. We get tables of water samples with about fifty tests on them. So anyways, I took both of the samples down and was pleased to find out that the RO/DI water was pretty much devoid of ANYTHING except water molecules. Whereas my tap contained copper (Im assuming due to copper pipes.) a TON of floride, zinc, chloride and chloramines out the butt, and a few other things that I cant believe I drink. But hey man, if its working for you go for it. The problem is recommending it to people who dont know what the hell they are doing. And I know thats not what you are doing, just making a point. And further more to prove the point for the other side, my big RO/DI aquarium has a massive unknown cyano algae bloom right now.

 

[Anonymous]

Well i go with what works. And tap water works for me. I went the RO/DI route and i was not happy with the results. Switched back to tap water and I am much more statisfied. Since we cannot test for all these so called toxic metals like cobalt zinc selenium ,arsenic etc etc ,,,in the standard home hobby test kit with any degree of percision or accuracy, How can one be sure that the RO/DI processes is complete? a TDS meter can give you halfway decent reading but one can not be sure. Taking the word of the compnnay that sells these RO/DI makers is not the best of unbiased information. You can spout out exotic toixc metals and algea blooms, animals dying, massive tank crashes and corals being "stressed' out and for YOUR tank that may be thre case But I am not taking care of your tank and your tank is not my concern and i know nothing of your tanks. I am saying what works for me and Tap water is the way i go. Each tank and each situationis different. If someone ask me what i use i tell them tap water and why if they ask what should they use, I will tell them do your homework (like i did) and monitor and compare your results (like i do) OR you can just read a three or 4 page add by some RO/DI dealer and take their word at face value. Now RO/DI water does have a use, i use it in my Iron, to Dilute my radiator fluid, washing windows and to remove satl creep from time to time. It also very good for flushing out the expresso maker.

Eh?

It's well established that these elements are toxic. It's not like we're unsure.

It's also well established that RO/DI systems work and work well. They're not some newfangled snake oil contraption. Laboratories all over the world use them to purify water.

If anything, folks should be much more concerned about the quality of the salt mix they are using rather than the quality of their RO/DI system. The components pretty much are identical with different packaging on the exterior.

 

[Tackett]

Amen my brother.

 

[SnowManSnow]

reading this thread makes ME WORRY ABOUT WHAT I DRINK haha.. geez.. so picky about the fish, I guess I should be lots more picky about what my kid drinks!

 

[Anonymous]

reading this thread makes ME WORRY ABOUT WHAT I DRINK haha.. geez.. so picky about the fish, I guess I should be lots more picky about what my kid drinks!

bingo!
~wings~

 

[Anonymous]

What I do not hear in all these arguments is what level of any contaminate is found. So this just sounds like scare tactics to my designed to sell more water filters.

Is there rocket fuel in tap water? sure. after all hydrogen peroxide was the oxidator for the budwiser car that went faster than the speed of sound. And there is undoubtly some hydrogen peroxide in all water. Along with the other chemicals mentioned that at 100% full strength would kill any living thing.


But at what level are they in our drinking water? At what level are they in our tanks after 3-4 weeks of the system processing the water? And at what level do the stay at after that initial conditioning of the tank water? Plus what level actually affects our corals and fish?

The only scientific evidence I have read indicates that 1/10 pound of one macro in a 55g system removes 250ppm copper when the copper level is maintained at 250ppm. And that the bioaccumulation is linear with the copper concentration.

Until scientific evidence is submitted, the above comments are just running scared.

Meanwhile many many hobbiest report excellent tanks using tap water.

 

[Anonymous]

...and many hobbiests fail with Tap water and quit the hobby.

Copper is always tested in EPA reports and usually over the limit to be safe for inverts. For fish only I don't see a problem with copper at tap water levels but this is a reefkeeping forum and levels of copper above NSW levels should be avoided as much as possible.

What macro algae is that Bob? Is that what you're using?

 

[Anonymous]

...and many hobbiests fail with Tap water and quit the hobby.

Copper is always tested in EPA reports and usually over the limit to be safe for inverts. For fish only I don't see a problem with copper at tap water levels but this is a reefkeeping forum and levels of copper above NSW levels should be avoided as much as possible.

What macro algae is that Bob? Is that what you're using?

dern. I was hoping you had some scientific experiments on chaeto or things we do use.

 

[Anonymous]

dern. I was hoping you had some scientific experiments on chaeto or things we do use.

Me too.

Dr. Ron did some studies though that indicated Caulerpa racemosa isn't very good at exporting copper at the typical levels found in hobbiest aquariums. It was too small of a study to be conclusive though. I would be interested in a similar study using Chaetomorpha for sure.

 

[Anonymous]

dern. I was hoping you had some scientific experiments on chaeto or things we do use.

Me too.

Dr. Ron did some studies though that indicated Caulerpa racemosa isn't very good at exporting copper at the typical levels found in hobbiest aquariums. It was too small of a study to be conclusive though. I would be interested in a similar study using Chaetomorpha for sure.

If this is the "snapshots" fo reef tanks there is more than the small sample size wrong. What is needed is to put the plant life in a controlled environment and measure the bioabsorbtion of say copper over time. Just as was done with the experiements referred to in the EPA/WHO study.

Dr. Ron's snapshots does not even tell us if the copper went from the water column to the plant life or if the copper came from the plant life to the water column.

Several studies have been documented on treating industrial waste water using dead dried macros. And they are extremely effective in doing that. From what I understand you can even recover the toxins for recycling. But that is not bio accumulation by living macros. And the environmental engineers I have emailed have indicated that information on the living forms of macros is not readily available. Their work and expertise is with the non-living forms.

 

[Anonymous]

Several studies have been documented on treating industrial waste water using dead dried macros. And they are extremely effective in doing that. From what I understand you can even recover the toxins for recycling. But that is not bio accumulation by living macros. And the environmental engineers I have emailed have indicated that information on the living forms of macros is not readily available. Their work and expertise is with the non-living forms.

Now we're communicating Bob! We both agree that we really don't know anything for sure and someone needs to lay down some bucks if we're ever going to find out.

I'm a strong proponent of macro algae even if you think I fight you all the time. I just don't believe it can do it all and especially copper. The anecdotal evidence I've accumulated just doesn't support it, nor do Dr. Ron's results (that used My copper laden water and My algae by the way). It did show that with Copper over twice NSW levels (from My Lagoon) Caulerpa racemosa (also from my lagoon) didn't contain much Copper. What it didn't show was if my lagoon has a harmful form of copper and what form of Copper the algae sequestered.

So, I put up a significant amount of money (significant for me anyway) to attempt to get some proof. There just weren't enough people willing to plop down some cash to get a valid study.

So, until then I'm going to continue to recommend that people add as little Copper to their aquarium as possible. Typically Tap water is just too high in Copper although there are many exceptions.

 

[Anonymous]

What I do not hear in all these arguments is what level of any contaminate is found. So this just sounds like scare tactics to my designed to sell more water filters.

I don't sell RO filters, sorry, nor does anyone else in this thread to my knowledge. Actually I don't even own one. I get my water from the local university.

Is there rocket fuel in tap water? sure. after all hydrogen peroxide was the oxidator for the budwiser car that went faster than the speed of sound. And there is undoubtly some hydrogen peroxide in all water. Along with the other chemicals mentioned that at 100% full strength would kill any living thing.


But at what level are they in our drinking water?
I don't know.
At what level are they in our tanks after 3-4 weeks of the system processing the water?
I don't know
And at what level do the stay at after that initial conditioning of the tank water?
I don't know
Plus what level actually affects our corals and fish?
I don't know....and here's the kicker...I DON'T WANT TO FIND OUT. There are plenty of studies out there that show incredibly low levels of toxins affecting the development of marine invertebrate larvae. This alone makes me want the levels to be zero.

The only scientific evidence I have read indicates that 1/10 pound of one macro in a 55g system removes 250ppm copper when the copper level is maintained at 250ppm. And that the bioaccumulation is linear with the copper concentration.
I noticed you never responded to my earlier comment on this. Let's assume that your statement that algae removes copper is true. Even so, when you top off every day, you're adding copper to your tank. Does it disappear instantaneously? Do the copper ions know how to avoid the corals, yet know how to get soaked up by the algae? No, of course not. Even IF your copper level was zero in your tank, and it was not zero in your source water, you are exposing your corals to copper every day. Bad idea.

Until scientific evidence is submitted, the above comments are just running scared.
You really want scientific evidence that it's NOT a good idea to add rocket fuel, arsenic, copper and selenium to your reef tank? Okay Bob, I'll find that along with some scientific evidence that it's NOT a good idea to jump off a skyscraper.

Meanwhile many many hobbiest report excellent tanks using tap water.
Like you?

 

[Anonymous]

BTW, a link to a good RO/DI system.

http://www.aquaticreefsystems.com/Rever ... 4Stage.htm

It's $200. If you can't afford this, time to get out of the hobby.