Sabella & pH

[lashilia]

I recently lost two of my large sabella worms. One dropped its crown and left its tube & was eaten, the other left its tube w/o dropping its crown. A third is looking weak. Only the Sabellas are affected. All other dusters are fine. Corals look fine. All other inverts are great (starfish, the cuke I wrote in about before, crabs, shrimp, etc)

Could this be because of low pH? Mine is about at 7.8. (I am slowly raising it with argonite gravel/sand.) My nitrates, ammonia, nitrites, calcium, and traces are all good. What about temperature? I keep mine low for the corals... maybe the dusters need higher temp?

Am I making an obvious mistake? Perhaps this should be in beginner forum? Any ideas? Thank you!

 

[Anonymous]

When did you measure ph. If it was just before lights on then that is about what my tank is at. But if it is just before lights out then IMO it is too low.


Low ph is a sign of carbon dioxide. As is livestock dying.

My ph was 7.4 or lower until I added macros to my system. Just before lights out ph has been 8.4+ for over a year after I added the macors. So you might try adding or increasing macros and see what happens.

 

[Anonymous]

You say you keep your temp "low", how low is it?

I run my reef at about 79.

 

[lashilia]

I run my temp in mid-upper seventies. Right now, about 76 Degrees F. I would believe it might be carbon dioxide. How do I check it? Whatever it was must have passed, because my remaining duster is looking even better. I am not going to give up on the idea of harrasment, but I am almost sure it is nutrients. I am also considering the notion that these dusters require a different environmental emulation.

What do you mean by macros? Do you mean macro algae? I have some Caulerpa fern in that tank that I harvest sometimes and feed to other fish in other tanks. I also have turf algae my turbos keep in check.

I would love to have an Addey-style system, but I cannot afford it now. I am considering some sort of refugium or sump, but it will involve some saving and a lot of thought.

Anyone with refugium/sump suggestions? This tank is a small 29 gal. reef that has been designed to be viewed from both sides. Adding a sump would give me a more attractive place to put the protien skimmer, plus I could turn it into a modified Addey after I save a little. What kind of lighting do you guys recommend? It would have to be really strong for an Addey. I gave a small metal hallide I might be able to use. Live rock may boost my copepod population, and my little six-line would love the extra food! Would a five or ten gallon suffice? Thank you so much in advance!

 

[Anonymous]

I don't have any experience with the Addey system, that is an algal turf scrubber correct? It is my understanding that you need alot of room for those.

I think adding a sump, and partitioning off any space left over from your skimmer to turn into a macro algae refugium would be a great idea. I would use as large a tank for a sump as you have room for, trust me, you will be happy with more room in the sump, but I know there is a limit to how big you can go. For a regular macro algae refugium you don't have to go with strong lights like an algae scrubber, most macro algae does not need a ton of light. If you can find a small PC fixture that would work great.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes I did mean macro algaes.

I really like my in tank refug but my tank can not be viewed from both sides. You could try an in tank refug at the sides. I am also not familiar with a addey style system but am sure sumps/refugs do not have to be expensive. My in tank was nothing more than an eggcrate that cost $10 for instance.

I also have an external sump/refug which has more problems but is convienent to put things outta sight. Just make sure the refug portion is 30%or larger of the display.

For macros I like chaetomorphia (sp) (chaeto). if just grows to whatever shape and size the refug is. One member in a local club just used a plastic shoe box on his 10g. He would start with a fist sized ball of chaeto which would grow to fill the box each week. Then he harvests it back to a fist size again for the next week. Cyano went away and nitrates went to 0.0 (from 20ppm) in a week.

I have also used caulerpa profilera and other types. The grape required higher lighting and attached itself to the rocks. the profilera did well with lower lighting and stayed on the sand.

HTH

 

[Anonymous]

Awwwww just found out about the addey system.

The concept of macro algae based water purification technology as developed by Dr. Walter Addey, Director of the Marine Systems Laboratory of the Smithsonian Institute, is amazingly simple. Through the natural process of photosynthesis water pollutants (organic compounds) within the aquarium are removed as nutrients for the algae. The by-product of photosynthesis is life sustaining oxygen.

This definately does not have to be expensive. In fact this is the least expensive of all reef filtration systems. IMO

 

[Anonymous]

Addey == algae scrupper?

 

[Anonymous]

Addey == algae scrupper?

Kinda. definately the balanced ecosystem type of approach.

Authored a book title Dynamic Aquarium. Reviews indicated it was long on science but short on engineering. Explained algae scrubber (plant life) theory but not how to build an algae scrubber for instance.

Smithsonia marine station is on the east coast of florida. from what I found.

 

[lashilia]

Yeah, the Addey system is cool because it is natural, but it is not a guranteed success. It competes for nutrients with skimmer sometimes. I believe some part of the system is patented, but the basic idea is the same: Algae absorb nutrients, then you harvest the algae. I breed sailfins for fun and they love algae. My Endler's appreciate large amounts of greens as well. B/c they are brackish, the algae stays alive and does not pollute the water before they get it eaten.

This is a great system, and a modified version may be a solution. Of course I will put a refugium in my sump. I have also considered an over-the-back fuge. If I keep it clean enough (no salt 'icicles' off the back), it may be just as much fun to watch the mysids and stuff as the real tank. Would I need powerful lighting for this? Cuz' if not I could just pump water in and out. Is there a good site for buying one, or would I do better to make one? Also, I would like to hear more about the in-tank-refugium. Do you mean in the main reef tank, or in the sump?

This tank is in my bedroom at the end of my bed. I watch the fish and shrimp before I go to sleep. I like to listen to the pistol shrimp snap and watch the little six-line catch amphipods. She doesn't even take food from me anymore; she just catches her food. The damsel, on the other hand, is a little hog.

I appreciate the advice guys! This is really helpful.

 

[Anonymous]

lashilia:

I agree with your observations. And you are correct, that system is not a guarantee of success.

But in my experience plant life simply trumps everything else. For instance, you are correct plant life and skimmer compete for the same resources. So my solution is to simply not use a skimmer.

For Fw there is absolutely no question. I have ran tanks for up to six years continuous in one city (8 years total) with descendants from the original two fish. But there can be problems as this thread shows: http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=60020

The in tank refug is just some sort of partition to seperate a display area from the refug area. With my 55g I just crammed in an egg crate about 3" from the back glassl. I also use 2 4' utility lights 6" behind the back glass pointing at the back galss. Macros stay in in tank refug area, my tang grazes the few that poke through all day, pods are protected also and make their way into the display area.

You can experiement but bottom line to me is to simply take care of the plant life and let the plant life take care of the tank. IME the more in interfere with that idea, the more maintenance and problems I have.

Bob

 

[lashilia]

Cool. I was hoping you'd say something like that. I don't really like using the skimmer. It would be great to turn part of my tank into a refug. Do you have shrimps in yours, or just pods and algae and stuff? I'd love to see a pic. Do you have a link?

 

[Anonymous]

Cool. I was hoping you'd say something like that. I don't really like using the skimmer.

Before taking the advice of removing your skimmer you might want to consider placing more weight on the advice of hobbiests without a history of tank crashes and dead animals.

Just a thought....

 

[Anonymous]

Cool. I was hoping you'd say something like that. I don't really like using the skimmer. It would be great to turn part of my tank into a refug. Do you have shrimps in yours, or just pods and algae and stuff? I'd love to see a pic. Do you have a link?

I agree. I would rather spend the $150 for a skimmer on a larger tank to begin with, or inhabitants, or take my wife out to dinner or vacation.

Here is a link of the in tank refug as initially set up.

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthr ... did=101556

the initial lighting produced the growth at the top of the tank and nitrates did not drop to 0.0.

here is a link to my tank on this board.: http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=57481

those pictures are underexposed so but you should be able to see that the corals are thriving. You do get a good idea of the in tank refug and the lighting. Lighting cost $60 total. I additionally describe the operation and maintenance there. One upgrade I am still working on is a DIY closed loop/surge/filter to replace the external sump/refug. That way I do not have to worry about the floods possible with the external sump/refug.

Yes I do have mysis type shrimps, gammarus (sp.) and other pods. I have chaeto, grape and prolifera caulerpa, a red grape, and ulva in the in tank refug. I harvest a bunch each month for our local club and even mail some to posters around the country.

Now local club members and those I have sent macros too swear they will never start a tank again without a thriving macros in a refugium.

To summarize the operation, straight untreated tap, no water changes, silica play sand, utility lights for about 400watts, 55g tank. external DIY filter box with landscape lava rocks and crushed oyster shells. mag 1100-1200ppm, calcium 400ppm, alk 2 meg/l, ammonia .25, nitrIte 0.0, nitrate 0-.5ppm. ph just before lights out 8.4+, just before lights on 7.8 or lower.

Bob

 

[Anonymous]

To summarize the operation, straight untreated tap, no water changes, silica play sand, utility lights for about 400watts, 55g tank. external DIY filter box with landscape lava rocks and crushed oyster shells. mag 1100-1200ppm, calcium 400ppm, alk 2 meg/l, ammonia .25, nitrIte 0.0, nitrate 0-.5ppm. ph just before lights out 8.4+, just before lights on 7.8 or lower.

Bob

I hope this isn't to be taken as advice. It's a receipe for a tank crash.

 

[liquid]

To summarize the operation, straight untreated tap, no water changes, silica play sand, utility lights for about 400watts, 55g tank. external DIY filter box with landscape lava rocks and crushed oyster shells. mag 1100-1200ppm, calcium 400ppm, alk 2 meg/l, ammonia .25, nitrIte 0.0, nitrate 0-.5ppm. ph just before lights out 8.4+, just before lights on 7.8 or lower.

Bob

I hope this isn't to be taken as advice. It's a receipe for a tank crash.

I gotta agree w/ Guy on this. You're just asking for trouble following this advice.

Lava rocks: can contain a considerable amt of phosphate == BAD

straight tap water: depending on your location they also can contain phosphates (in large amts) == BAD

Please read this: http://www.reefs.org/library/newbieguide.htm

Shane

 

[Anonymous]

I gotta agree w/ Guy on this. You're just asking for trouble following this advice.

Lava rocks: can contain a considerable amt of phosphate == BAD

straight tap water: depending on your location they also can contain phosphates (in large amts) == BAD

Please read this: http://www.reefs.org/library/newbieguide.htm

Shane

Count me as being in agreement as well, and:

Could this be because of low pH? Mine is about at 7.8. (I am slowly raising it with argonite gravel/sand.)

Here's an earlier thread with really good information on Ca/PH balance and why adding aragonite or crushed coral sand doesn't work.


http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... raising+ph

 

[Len]

Bob, with all due respect, I don't think you know what "thriving corals" look like. In comparision, here is my skimmed tank:

And this is what a torch and colt corals should look like after 2 years:

If your Xenias and Zoanthids are thriving, they should take over the tank in half a year. Notice the cluster of corals below, which is less then 2 years time of growth:

No offense, but I still regard your approach and advice as dangerous.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow that is a lovely tank Len.

May I ask what kind of lights you have? We will be upgrading our light in the future and your tank has the look I am going for.

 

[Anonymous]

That is a really nice tank. The torch is stunning.