nitrification- changing view point?

[Len]

I've used macroalgae ("Dutch") filtration. I've used UGF. I've used ATS microalgae scrubbers. I've used DSBs. I've used skimmers. Skimmers are the least labor intensive and most successful filtration tool I've used, and by a considerable margin. Of course, you can use it in combination with any of the others.

 

[danmhippo]

Chris: RO/di, skimmers, dsb, filters and so on were originally IMO designed to help reduce or eliminate our dependance on plant life to balance out the system. But even with all that, algae blooms, long deap cycles threatening livestock still occur.

That's your conspiracy theory, eh?

No, I am not getting into this debate again. But just want to say that unless you can duplicate the fish to water ratio in the wild as your system, otherwise, keep up with WC, skimmer, RODI, and refugium.

BTW, RODI is not designed to compete with macro algae. Since you are an engineer, you should've known better.

 

[Anonymous]

working backword :lol:

dan but everyone posts to use ro/di to prevent algae.I fully agree with you because most of the bioload comes from the livestock not the input water. So there is no competition between plant life and ro/di.

Chris You are correct I have never used an ro/di unit or skimmer. Just had tanks that ran for up to 6 years continuous with no water changes. So no need for them. The newbie would be better off spending that $300-$500 on a larger system to begin with. Or taking the wife on a nice vacation.

Guy there is no question poluting our tanks causes damage to various livestock. But you submit no evidence on the bioaccumulation of copper and other toxins. I have. The question is not the immediate adding of top off water that contains toxins which are not toxic to humans. Which also may result in a temporary cronic level of toxins to the tank. But are within hours lowered to non toxic levels. Which is the only reason tanks could last for years with plant life an no other filtration. And the reason the same plant life protects our environment by cleaning up toxic wastes sites. Again a single ion of copper does not go from invert to invert killing all. A 5% topoff with tap level copper does not result in any short or long term effects with thriving plant life. And ro/di units fail. as do skimmers and all other man made filtration.

I was going to enter the build off. But the wife vetoed it due to lack of space.

 

[danmhippo]

OMG, there are something that we actually do agree on? This is a scary thought. Hope it's not contagious.

Bob, you know you can veto your wife, right? Show her the way out and make the space for a couple more tanks. Heck, you don't have to worry about flipping the toilet seat anymore.....

 

[ChrisRD]

And ro/di units fail. as do skimmers and all other man made filtration.

Weak argument. Anything is subject to failure. I know-of quite a few people who've had issues with macros going sexual and making a mess of their tank. In fact, I've experienced it myself.

If something goes wrong with an RO/DI unit, it shows up in the product water and you have the option of not using that batch of water. Also, problems or routine exhaustion of filters or membranes will almost always show-up gradually. These units rarely have any sudden problem, but even if they do, you can just toss that batch of product water.

If your skimmer stops working, it's no big deal - you generally have days/weeks before wastes start to accumulate enough cause any significant negative effects. It's a form of nutrient export - not critical life support.

The misconceptions you have about these products shows that you have no experience with them. You really shouldn't be passing judgement or giving advice about things you don't have any experience with IMO.

 

[Anonymous]

But are within hours lowered to non toxic levels.

This has been proven otherwise by several studies. Copper and aluminum levels in the typical reef tank are too high. You speak of submitting evidence and yet the only evidence I have seen from you about reef tanks is that yours seem to crash about once a year and most of your animals are being replaced on a regular basis. IMO this contradicts your theories.

Keeping Damsels alive for years in a dirty tank isn't evidence for keeping a reef tank healthy. It just shows that a streak of cruelty runs through you.

 

[Anonymous]

Of course, you can use it in combination with any of the others.

This is my point here. There are a multitude of tools available to the hobbiest. I incorporate many of them, not all. Relying completely on algae to clean your system is like only using pliers to build a house. Using algae filtration is a pretty good tool but it's just one tool and it doesn't do it all.

 

[Anonymous]

I was going to enter the build off. But the wife vetoed it due to lack of space.

That's too bad. It would be very interesting.

 

[Anonymous]

Well maybe :lol: I am working on a diy filter/surge to replace my external sump. So maybe the testing could be entered. But it wouldn't win any prizes or reflect my points here. Besides I keep getting close but then have to make improvments.

I think all the main points have once again been covered. Thanks again for a lively discussion. But in this particular thread there is no need to continuously repeat those points. we simply agree to disagree.

 

[ChrisRD]

there is no need to continuously repeat those points.

You might want to take your own advice, especially when much of what you're saying flies in the face of what the reefkeeping community has learned through decades of experience. Don't take my word for it - read a few modern books on reefkeeping.

we simply agree to disagree.

Yes, we disagree - you feel any reef tank should be run as if it's a live planted freshwater tank. You also recommend using tapwater instead of RO, not doing water changes, and using crushed oyster shells with tank water running through them for Ca supplementation. You'll find that most (basically all) experienced reefkeepers will disagree with those notions.

 

[Anonymous]

Chris You are correct I have never used an ro/di unit or skimmer. Just had tanks that ran for up to 6 years continuous with no water changes. So no need for them. The newbie would be better off spending that $300-$500 on a larger system to begin with. Or taking the wife on a nice vacation.

You have had your reef tank for less than two years. IMO, you really need to stop using non reef tanks to support your ideas about reef tanks because they are different balls of wax.
The newbie gets to make their own decision on what they would be better off spending their money on.

Guy there is no question poluting our tanks causes damage to various livestock. But you submit no evidence on the bioaccumulation of copper and other toxins. I have.

What you have submitted is studies on cold water macros. Hardly a definitive conclusion on the warm water macros that we use.

The question is not the immediate adding of top off water that contains toxins which are not toxic to humans. Which also may result in a temporary cronic level of toxins to the tank. But are within hours lowered to non toxic levels. Which is the only reason tanks could last for years with plant life an no other filtration.

Or that the tanks you are talking about did not have invertebrate life in the.

And the reason the same plant life protects our environment by cleaning up toxic wastes sites. Again a single ion of copper does not go from invert to invert killing all. A 5% topoff with tap level copper does not result in any short or long term effects with thriving plant life. And ro/di units fail. as do skimmers and all other man made filtration.

And here is the basic problem with your arguments - all tap water is not the same. Making a general statement like 'tap level copper does not result in any short or long term effects with thriving plant life' is a dangerous mis-generalization.

 

[Anonymous]

I think all the main points have once again been covered. Thanks again for a lively discussion. But in this particular thread there is no need to continuously repeat those points. we simply agree to disagree.

We don't simply agree to disagree. You do. Many of the rest of us think you are dangerously wrong.

 

[Anonymous]

You just may find that skimmers,ro/di,filters, etc etc are not all that necessary.

No, those things are not totally 100 percent necessary, but they make a reef tank much easier to maintain.

Even with my four foot long refugium, which, interestingly enough, requires the most attention of anything on my system.