Cycling has 6 stages not just 3!

[nigle]

Oi!

I have been reading "The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium" series of books and I came
across an idea in the first volume [I recommend that everyone have all in this series not
just volume 2] that has put into perspective something that I have seen in all the on-line
reefing communities for the last 6+ years that I have had a saltwater tank as a 'problem'
and I think that we are all WRONG and that this 'hits it on the head'.

Cycling, we all know it as 'NTS' new tank syndrome, but we think of it as: Ammonia to
Nitrite to Nitrate, and once the first two are over and the Nitrate is 'stable' we think that
the cycling is over and we add 'stuff' to the tank. Then we all start complaining about the
diatoms, the cyno, and the algae as 'problems' AFTER the cycling, and that is where we
are WRONG. It is discussed in Vol..1 that 'cycling' is actually the first three that we
know of, THEN the diatoms 'remove' the excess silicates, the cyno go after the nutrients
in the water that need to be removed BEFORE adding fish and corals, and the algae the
same, I.E. we are all 'adding' stuff too soon, and the reason why we sometimes have an
outbreak of algae that never goes away is that we added stuff, BEFORE THE
CYCLING WAS ACTUALLY OVER. This makes a great deal of sense to me.

In the book is says 'be patient', and we all know that we aren't. Once the ammonia and
Nitrite is down, here we go adding stuff. How many of you out there have done that and
then gone here saying "My diatoms are out of control?", "My algae is out of control", I
haven't I just try to 'fix' it, but how many of us read these posts every day here?

This series has been out since the mid 90's. I just read this part this day, [I had Vol. 2 for
a year now, but I bought the other 3 at IMAC this year and obviously I just got to this
one today], and I realize that we have misunderstood the concept of Cycling, cycling is
not just the first 3 but the first 6 items, then once the algae has removed all the 'excess'
nutrients in the water THEN we can start to add stuff into the tanks.

What gets me is that I don't recall ANYONE mentioning this 6 items as cycling but only
the first 3 and then the next three as being 'problems'? Am I wrong? Have there ever
been posts where someone has mentioned that the 'cycling' process has contained 6
stages? If not then let me be the first to do so. Does anyone out there have these
books? Did anyone out there read what I did? Did anyone out there get the point?

I did, HA!

Cheers!
nigle
!~!

 

[Anonymous]

It doesn't really end in 6 discreet stages either. There are constantly things dying, many months or even years after live rock is placed in an aquarium. My guess is that the 3 stages bit refers to keeping fish. Fish don't really care how high your silicates or DOCs are, but they do mind if there's a bit of ammonia or nitrite in the water.

I think a good rule of thumb is to wait 2 months before adding ANY life besides live rock. Except maybe copepod or amphipod kits, or macroalgae or whatever. Then hardy corals at 2 months, 3 even better. More delicate corals at 6 months. In a perfect world I'd add fish at a year, but who the heck wants to wait a year to add fish? I usually add them after 2-3 months.

 

[nigle]

Oi!

Close, but my point was that most reefers seem to think as it looks like you do too, that when the ammonia and nitrite are gone [after as you said a few months] that it is time to start adding things. I wish you agreeded with the diatoms, cyno and start up algae, because that was my point.

As I said above, I believe that maybe the 'cycling' is ended when the diatoms, cyno and algae are gone to signal that is the time when the cycling is over, there isn't a time limit to this, but when the algae is receeding that is when the cycling is clost to an end, and then it is time to add stuff.

If you start to add things to the tank and then you get a cyno bloom and the algae returns again, the cycling wasn't complete.

Cheers!
nigle
!~!

 

[ChrisRD]

I do agree that many people start stocking too early/quickly which leads to future problems. Overall though, IMO the above is really not a new concept - plenty of experienced reefers recommend waiting on serious stocking for a couple of months or so until the system has gotten past some of the initial algae blooms. I think what Matt is pointing out is that it's tough to put exact numbers on this process because individual tanks will vary so much. There's a ton of variables involved here...

 

[WRASSER]

The bio-load also has to build to help with life in the tank

 

[Anonymous]

Oi!

Close, but my point was that most reefers seem to think as it looks like you do too, that when the ammonia and nitrite are gone [after as you said a few months] that it is time to start adding things. I wish you agreeded with the diatoms, cyno and start up algae, because that was my point.

As I said above, I believe that maybe the 'cycling' is ended when the diatoms, cyno and algae are gone to signal that is the time when the cycling is over, there isn't a time limit to this, but when the algae is receeding that is when the cycling is clost to an end, and then it is time to add stuff.

If you start to add things to the tank and then you get a cyno bloom and the algae returns again, the cycling wasn't complete.

Cheers!
nigle
!~!

I think you misunderstood the intention of my post, or I wasn't very clear. I see most books recommending 3-4 weeks as a good time to start adding fish. I agree that is far too soon.

At 2-3 months every tank I've kept has gotten beyond the nuisance algae phases and started showing coralline algae growth. That is a good sign IMHO that the tank is stable and ready to accept fish and hardy corals. I keep my tanks at a bit higher temperature than most people do, and I try my best to get live rock that is already very cured or nearly so. Since this may be a bit different than how some people do it, I guess stating "2 months" is kind of oversimplifying it on my part.

In other words, yes, wait! Patience is the number one virtue in this hobby!

 

[KLGreene]

Oi!

Close, but my point was that most reefers seem to think as it looks like you do too, that when the ammonia and nitrite are gone [after as you said a few months] that it is time to start adding things. I wish you agreeded with the diatoms, cyno and start up algae, because that was my point.

As I said above, I believe that maybe the 'cycling' is ended when the diatoms, cyno and algae are gone to signal that is the time when the cycling is over, there isn't a time limit to this, but when the algae is receeding that is when the cycling is clost to an end, and then it is time to add stuff.

If you start to add things to the tank and then you get a cyno bloom and the algae returns again, the cycling wasn't complete.

Cheers!
nigle
!~!

I would have to agree with what you read.....I can remember posting on the forums and going to my lfs, saying this stuff is out of hand, and driving me to the point that I want to tear down my tank and start over. But once the diatoms started receeding, that's when I started seeing alot more new life in the tank...i.e., tube worms, more pods, little mushrooms, etc. Also you could just tell that the inhabitants were much more comfortable, and starting to show growth.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[popsock]

Not sure about the Diatoms using up silicate. I recently set up a new tank and used silicate remover from day one, and tested for it too. I could not find a trace of silicate. I've often wondered if silicate can be extracted from the silicone in a new tank? Is that chemically possible?

 

[Anonymous]

What gets me is that I don't recall ANYONE mentioning this 6 items as cycling but only
the first 3 and then the next three as being 'problems'? Am I wrong? Have there ever
been posts where someone has mentioned that the 'cycling' process has contained 6
stages? If not then let me be the first to do so. Does anyone out there have these
books? Did anyone out there read what I did? Did anyone out there get the point?

I did, HA!

Cheers!
nigle
!~!

It all depends on what you consider the cycle. Strictly speaking, cycling refers to the nitrogen cycle, in which in terms of the hobby there are three stages.
The other three 'stages' you mention, aren't really part of the cycle, but are often part of setting up a new system. However, not all systems go through the second three 'stages', so I would be hard pressed to call them part of the 'cycle'.

 

[Anonymous]

It's easy to get wrapped around some cook-book recipe for determining if your tank has quote cycled, but observation is keep.

Starting a new tank, I always use water and sand from an established thriving buddy's tank to jump start the process. Then I'll let it run for at least 6 weeks getting the fuge going, and running all the gear like Ca Reactor, Nilsen, and skimming. The rock will do what it will do during this timeframe. I also make sure ORP stays up there w/ozone.

My indicator that it's time to start adding SPS is when coralline algae forms to about a quarter size on the back glass.

Many disagree about testing, but I don't test at all until I'm ready to add coral, and then just cursory tests like Ca, hardness, maybe Mg.

If you have a well established, thriving fuge, it will bsorb just about any nitrogenous spike, so I never test for any of the nitro's.

The MCRA books are a little beyond touch with the hobbyist. The Sprung/Delbeek books are much better IMO, and Calfo/Fenner's new book is great as well.

Long-term, successful reef keepers are such, because the develop an intuitive approach to reefkeeping, not a cookbook approach.

 

[Anonymous]

I am in agreement, not because I have a long time in S/W reefs, but because I have set up five tanks and watched them all go through the same basic cycles that nigle describes.

Until I moved my 90G tank... It was a lot like a new setup except I used existing rock and substrate and water. There was no cycle to speak of, even the three additional stages were not present, so that leads me to believe that cycling is as dependant on your starting conditions as any other major process in reef-keeping.

That having been said. I agree that there are at lease 6 stages to a brand new, new rock, new water setup just as nigle said. You don't add new, non cleaner-crew things to the tank until the cyano is under control.