Curious, how many here are aware of cyanide collecting ?
- Thread starter coralfarmin
- Start date
Prolly most people are aware of cynanide collection. But I am sure most people have no idea how prevalent it still is. And those of us who think about it, have no exact figures to go by. When fish are ordered by our LFS from collectors who guarantee "no cyanide collecting", how do we really know?
I'm aware of it, but trust and capitalism are never a happy couple.
The industry needs a third party regulating board who can put a stamp of approval on proven ethical catching means. Like certified organics, you know your food has not been exposed to chemical altering fertilizers. The aquarium industry needs a protectorate to ensure that capitalism doesn't compromise ethics by lying to make a profit.
The industry needs a third party regulating board who can put a stamp of approval on proven ethical catching means. Like certified organics, you know your food has not been exposed to chemical altering fertilizers. The aquarium industry needs a protectorate to ensure that capitalism doesn't compromise ethics by lying to make a profit.
I have encountered alot that are not away from this board, but was also curious about the numbers on this board as well.
I agree that we need more people trying to "certify" collectors, since we dont really know how the fish were collected.
Nanogasm, I was gonna start a certified organic tomato greenhouse, Till I found out that it took 5 years of inspection to get the certification, then I swayed toward hydroponic.
I agree that we need more people trying to "certify" collectors, since we dont really know how the fish were collected.
Nanogasm, I was gonna start a certified organic tomato greenhouse, Till I found out that it took 5 years of inspection to get the certification, then I swayed toward hydroponic.
Wow.. I wasn't aware of how long it took to get certified in organics. I see why you were swayed otherwise. However, since time is ticking by, isn't it something to work towards since you're growing them anyways, or are there issues to contend with along the journey?
On a side note... one of the great things about ceritifcation "companies", is that in markets where there are none, it is a ripe niche for a group of people to commence the operation. It takes a looooooong time to gain garnered attention to become known across the masses, but it can be done.
In my home, there is a company called the TSSA - technical standards and safety association. They started off as a private company spreading the news about how manufactuers who make potentially unsafe products do not operate with standards for public safety. (elevators, propane and gas operated machinery, electrical products, etc..). Instead, we would let the system of law work backwards and fine/close down those who neglected to make a product safe after an injury occured. Unfortunately, the government wouldn't listen, nor fund them when they began their crusade of creating awareness. But they pressed on. Decades later, after continued perseverance, they are now recognized as a private organization that MUST be consulted by manufacturers who make products that can harm the public. Likewise, contractors cannot install product that is not TSSA certified, and they must receive TSSA training in proper installation procedures. Now, the government will fine companies that produce an object that isn't TSSA certified, and they also supplement the TSSA's operation with funding, yet the association is still a privately owned business. Interesting eh?
Though that example probably wouldn't happen in reefing since public safety is an easier thing to get the masses on board with, but none the less, people in the hobby will get to learn if their is an organization watching over the srupulous means to which profit is made. I enjoy my mini-reef a lot, but my interests are focused elsewhere in what I do for a living. But I bet there are people who devote a lot of passion to reefing in their professional life. It is people like these who I hope are working to achieve such a regulatory group that the public can become aware of, and can look for their 'seal of approval' when we purchase aquatics from LFSs and know, everything is cool.
On a side note... one of the great things about ceritifcation "companies", is that in markets where there are none, it is a ripe niche for a group of people to commence the operation. It takes a looooooong time to gain garnered attention to become known across the masses, but it can be done.
In my home, there is a company called the TSSA - technical standards and safety association. They started off as a private company spreading the news about how manufactuers who make potentially unsafe products do not operate with standards for public safety. (elevators, propane and gas operated machinery, electrical products, etc..). Instead, we would let the system of law work backwards and fine/close down those who neglected to make a product safe after an injury occured. Unfortunately, the government wouldn't listen, nor fund them when they began their crusade of creating awareness. But they pressed on. Decades later, after continued perseverance, they are now recognized as a private organization that MUST be consulted by manufacturers who make products that can harm the public. Likewise, contractors cannot install product that is not TSSA certified, and they must receive TSSA training in proper installation procedures. Now, the government will fine companies that produce an object that isn't TSSA certified, and they also supplement the TSSA's operation with funding, yet the association is still a privately owned business. Interesting eh?
Though that example probably wouldn't happen in reefing since public safety is an easier thing to get the masses on board with, but none the less, people in the hobby will get to learn if their is an organization watching over the srupulous means to which profit is made. I enjoy my mini-reef a lot, but my interests are focused elsewhere in what I do for a living. But I bet there are people who devote a lot of passion to reefing in their professional life. It is people like these who I hope are working to achieve such a regulatory group that the public can become aware of, and can look for their 'seal of approval' when we purchase aquatics from LFSs and know, everything is cool.
USDA Organic certification doesn't take 5 yrs to happen and all things USDA Certified Organic aren't nessecarily 100% organic. There's three different labels/classes of "Organic", must watch what your buying. :roll:
I've learned a lot about who has what, where it came from and how it's been handled. As far as wholesalers are concerned, I don't trust very many of them. I make a point of knowing which wholesaler my lfs get their fish from. Then when they get fish from x wholesaler, I stay away from the fish and tell them "I told you so" when they die in store.
I think hobbiests would be better off knowing which types of fish are most commonly caught with cyanide and from which areas. Do you realize how many ppl think that their mandarin or coral (heard that one right here on RDO) was caught with it? But for the most part, hobbiests don't care how or where their fish are caught as long as the price is cheap. At least until it dies for no apperant reason.
I've learned a lot about who has what, where it came from and how it's been handled. As far as wholesalers are concerned, I don't trust very many of them. I make a point of knowing which wholesaler my lfs get their fish from. Then when they get fish from x wholesaler, I stay away from the fish and tell them "I told you so" when they die in store.
I think hobbiests would be better off knowing which types of fish are most commonly caught with cyanide and from which areas. Do you realize how many ppl think that their mandarin or coral (heard that one right here on RDO) was caught with it? But for the most part, hobbiests don't care how or where their fish are caught as long as the price is cheap. At least until it dies for no apperant reason.
There are lots of places where fish are not being caught with cyanide, however, some/many of these places export both fish caught with cyanide and with nets.
Some collectors damage the reefs while collecting fish by breaking the coral to make it easier to catch the fish, some don't. So, it isn't just the cyanide that is problematic.
Cyanide may only be part of the reason that fish caught with cyanide die later in our tanks. If the fish were not decompressed when they were brought up, there can be lasting damage to many tissues. Also, sometimes to relieve the effects of non decompression, the airbladder of the fish is lanced, which can also cause lasting damage.
There seems to be an amazing lack of actual data tracking what fish die from what during collection and transport.
I am at a loss as to what to do about any of the collectors bad practices. International laws, even if made, are incredible difficult to enforce in the field. I think it will take more time (there has been massive motion away from cyanide in the last 20 years) and people who don't read online boards learning that their fish really should cost more than they currently pay.
Some collectors damage the reefs while collecting fish by breaking the coral to make it easier to catch the fish, some don't. So, it isn't just the cyanide that is problematic.
Cyanide may only be part of the reason that fish caught with cyanide die later in our tanks. If the fish were not decompressed when they were brought up, there can be lasting damage to many tissues. Also, sometimes to relieve the effects of non decompression, the airbladder of the fish is lanced, which can also cause lasting damage.
There seems to be an amazing lack of actual data tracking what fish die from what during collection and transport.
I am at a loss as to what to do about any of the collectors bad practices. International laws, even if made, are incredible difficult to enforce in the field. I think it will take more time (there has been massive motion away from cyanide in the last 20 years) and people who don't read online boards learning that their fish really should cost more than they currently pay.
Righty
I did not know that damage can be done the other ways you said, I definantly learned something today
Knowes, I may be wrong about the 5 years and would have to contact the NC greenhouse growers association agin to be sure, but that is what I remember. I will check to see.
I did not know that damage can be done the other ways you said, I definantly learned something today
Knowes, I may be wrong about the 5 years and would have to contact the NC greenhouse growers association agin to be sure, but that is what I remember. I will check to see.
Since there is very little we can do to stop this and have no real way of knowing if the fish was caught this way or not, why don't we make a sticky thread about where we got out fish at that has lived for 6 months, a year with us. If we did one for those that have dies we would have no real way of understanding what killed them, but those that have been a live for 6months to a year could be a good referance to wholesalers who may not be selling poisioned fish. But as Righty said the tang I got from supplier X may be ok, but that supplyer may be selling poisioned fish too. Just a thought
Mahai,
We have 3 lfs here in my small little town. I know all the owners and employees for that matter. I make a point of asking what is coming in and from whom they are getting it from. I will sometimes ask to see the wholesalers list, to see if they might have something I'm wanting. It's not so I can compare their wholesale prices with my retail one, I just like to see what might be available. I'll mention here that I can and do bag fish for other customers in 2 of the 3 stores.
In one shop I don't have to ask as he only gets from one wholesaler. Those particular fish and coral go from S. FL to Chicago via the airlines, then by truck down here to W. KY. A very long haul to be in little bags.
Knowing if your fish was caught in Indo or PI or FL (Did you know that it's legal in FL to juice fish?) isn't going to really help. As Righty mentioned, they use both methods. But knowing which fish are typically caught with cyanide, will go alot further to helping to stop the pratice altogether. Informed hobbiests can and will make the industry reform it's self. Maybe some would like to visit and read over in the industry forum, there really is a wealth of information there.
Don't bother, here ya go (must I always do your homework?)
http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p/_s ... navtype=RT
There are several glaring loopholes in the USDA organic standards.
We have 3 lfs here in my small little town. I know all the owners and employees for that matter. I make a point of asking what is coming in and from whom they are getting it from. I will sometimes ask to see the wholesalers list, to see if they might have something I'm wanting. It's not so I can compare their wholesale prices with my retail one, I just like to see what might be available. I'll mention here that I can and do bag fish for other customers in 2 of the 3 stores.
In one shop I don't have to ask as he only gets from one wholesaler. Those particular fish and coral go from S. FL to Chicago via the airlines, then by truck down here to W. KY. A very long haul to be in little bags.
Knowing if your fish was caught in Indo or PI or FL (Did you know that it's legal in FL to juice fish?) isn't going to really help. As Righty mentioned, they use both methods. But knowing which fish are typically caught with cyanide, will go alot further to helping to stop the pratice altogether. Informed hobbiests can and will make the industry reform it's self. Maybe some would like to visit and read over in the industry forum, there really is a wealth of information there.
Don't bother, here ya go (must I always do your homework?)
http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p/_s ... navtype=RT
There are several glaring loopholes in the USDA organic standards.
We used to have 3, now it's down to 2 :-(.knowse":2r410w5l said:
Then they may treat you different than my LFSs treat me (average Joe). It's true that I never asked to see their wholesale lists, but I doubt they would let. I'll try.
Define "juice". I can't believe that cyanide is legal anywhere, let alone Fl.
Is there a source on information on which fish are typically caught with cyanide? I'll check the industry forum, but I'm sure that it will not show a complete picture. Is anybody keeping any kinds of statistics on this problem? I always wondered how the experts know this kinds of things. It is impossible to get reliable statistically significant information from personal purchases...
M.
Mahai
A good place to start is here http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=73364. Also don't get discouraged over the "strong" personalitys in the indurstry forum. There is useful information there, some times it's buried kinda deep.
You'll be much better off going straight to the sources, so you'll want to talk with any or all of the following ppl.
cortez marine
PeterIMA
Mike King
Mkirda
What ever you don't do a search with "cyanide" in the industry forum
A good place to start is here http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=73364. Also don't get discouraged over the "strong" personalitys in the indurstry forum. There is useful information there, some times it's buried kinda deep.
You'll be much better off going straight to the sources, so you'll want to talk with any or all of the following ppl.
cortez marine
PeterIMA
Mike King
Mkirda
What ever you don't do a search with "cyanide" in the industry forum
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
