Large angelfish recommendation for a 6' tank.

[Anonymous]

Well I'm getting antsy for my cousin to move his crap out of my basement.. but when it happens my 135g will go downstairs, and I also have a 100 acrlyic as well that'll be down. Now the acrylic is only 18" tall (72x18x18) so I figured my preference towards bluer bulbs (14k) would work nicely there, but my 135g tank can't go to waste, and while I would like some corals in it, I figure I could stock it with the cheaper stuff, kenya tree, colt, mushrooms, etc that grow fast so if something nips it won't be very critical(plus less light). Now the tank is 72" long and 18" wide, and ideally I'd like to have it viewable from both sides (I'll scrape the black paint off the back), but now I'm curious about what to put in there.

I don't want aggressive fish (ie those that'll eat smaller fish/inverts), and was thinking to go the angelfish room, a few dwarf angels (bicolor which I have now, and maybe coralbeauty, flame, or other) and a large angel fish (bought in the juvenile stage so I can fully appreciate it) and I'm wondering which ones would be recommended, just 1 though I dont want to over stock.

I'd like recommendations based upon coral nipping, how good they look, demenor towards other fish, and of course size issues, I realize that 6 feet really is smaller than one should go for larger angels, but being as that takes years for them to get really big I can worry about that when I come to it.

 

[Unarce]

I love the colorful angels like the emperor, majestic, king, etc, but there's just something about the shape of the french angel that really sets it apart from all the others. I never get tired of seeing those beauties.

 

[MandarinFish]

I don't recommend a large angel - I'd encourage you not to get one.

* they eat corals and clams

* low survivability in captivity, often due to collection but also other factors

* they almost all get way too big for a 135... remember, it's not just about "does it fit," it's more about "what is the animal's natural range and swimming patterns?" Clowns do really well because they don't swim far, even in the wild. Angels, tangs, triggers, and big wrasses swim a lot.

* many, many angels are caught with cyanide Even a verifiably net-caught angel (hard enough to find, even if you care to) still has problems because of the above.

Lionfish get big but don't swim much at least.

I'd at least talk to Bob (at All About Fish in Pleasant Hill, formerly with Concord Aquarium), Gresham, or others about the above issues.

I'm not an expert on angels, and I love how they look too. I just know from my limited understanding that they get big, are delicate, and often are taken from the wild at the expense of killing everything around them with cyanide. And as an owner of two 135g tanks, I can verify that it seems big if you're coming from a 55g, but to an animal that gets a foot long (1/5th the size of the tank itself at it's biggest length) or so... it's a tiny prison.

With genuine respect, Mike, as you know... just some thoughts. Get a sunburst anthias - they get pretty big and are as attractive as most angels. Plus they don't turn grey-brown over time. They stay neon pink and yellow.

I won't razz you - just trying to help; thinking of what's best for the animals and the health of your mighty new tank.

 

[MandarinFish]

Watanabeis.....

* reef safe

* NOT a foot-and-a-half as adults (many angels are close to that)

* you can find them at many Bay Area LFS'es (James has had them at AS, Bob has some at AAF)

* you can keep a mated pair

* NOT from Indonesia/Phillippines, therefore probably NOT cyanide caught, therefore likely to live, not have an acre of corals killed in their capture, etc.

Check this great article - http://www.tmc-ltd.co.uk/fish.asp

That reminds me... I want a pair for my new 220g. They are active swimmers, so a lot of flow will probably keep them healthier. Anything with the name Tunze on it might solve that.

I hope I presented a nice solution, not just complaints. Whaddayathink Mike?

 

[Len]

I like Regals, Blueface, and Conspict angels. Get a Conpsict and I'll honor you with the cherished and elusive "Len's thumbs up" award.

 

[MandarinFish]

Greg P. (Greg65) had an $1800 conspic. For a while. He was unhappy when it died, to say the least.

Wet Web Media recommends "hundreds of gallons" for one. Gorgeous animals, definitely. I used his as the logo for www.omegareef.com.

It seemed to be his favorite. I liked it too. I think it's probably out of your current tanksize and price range.

Yep Len, that's a gem for the right tank. Check Wet Web about angels, Mike. He recommends some I wouldn't from what I've heard (the goldflakes are killed in large numbers by collecting from what I've been told), and he doesn't mention the Watanabe, but has others of the genus.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishe ... arangs.htm

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah Jake, I know the whole a 6' isn't large enough, hell an 8' probably isn't.. or as you've seen in some natural/public aquarium settings a 10 foot tank wouldn't be enough, but so goes for most all tangs as well yet there's some areas where we're willing to sacrifice.. I dont know how long term a 6' tank will be but I still have a desire to do a plywood L shape that has 16+ feet of swimming distance.. but that's a long term goal more so than the short term.

I'll have to see, I'm still not sold on angels.. and yeah, as much as I'd like a thumbs up Len, I'm not spending 2grand on a fish.. infact another half of the reason for getting a juvie is that you can get a Koran/Emperor in the range of $30-60

Option 2: is just to go with a number of dwarf angels, introduce them about the same time to try to minimize territorial disputes, and wait until I definately have my mega tank to get a large angel

 

[Anonymous]

Majestics are one of the smallest of the large angels. I think they're beautiful as well. The majority can be touchy and tough to feed from what I read. My only experience with one--ate like a pig, not too aggressive, lived for 3 years before a heater malfunction killed a bunch of my fish.

 

[Anonymous]

Goldflakes are awesome; think they are my faveorite looks-wise. Cute when little too.

 

[Anonymous]

So how much of an issue is it for food? I've read most have diets consisting of vegetable matter and sponges. But do I need to do the nori on a clip routine the feed sponges? Or is there an all in one food for them? (I think I've seen some at a LFS)

 

[MandarinFish]

Formula One for angels has sponge material in it I think. It's a frozen food.

No matter what they can get trained on, they still need sponge in their diet.

Bob at AAF is the one who told me countless goldflakes die before ever reaching a hobbyists' tank.

He said it's his least favorite fish, along with the powder blue tang. Terrible mortality rates.

There are fish that are unethical to try to buy and keep. Even if they live a while in our tanks, if large numbers of their species are wiped out just to bring one home, that's not right. Even beauties like the PBT. It's destroying reefs, fish communities, and our hobby when people make decisions like that regardless of the destruction.

Hey Len - can I get the Len's Thumbs Up Award for my non-$1800-but-cool-anyway Liopropoma swalesi (Candy Basslet)?

 

[Anonymous]

Not all angels need sponges, their diets run the gamut depending on what species you're talking about. Some Angels of the genus Holocanthus are obligate spongivores for instance, while many Pomocanthids are more eclectic in their eating habits, and a bit more predatory.
H. passer while belonging to a genus known as sponge eaters, will do fine without ever coming close to a spong in captivity.
P. paru, the French angel, grows to the size of a dinner plane inside of a year, so I wouldn't put one of those in anything smaller than a 300.

One of the best Pomocanthid angels for a tank in the size range mentioned is P. navarchus as Matt mentioned. The only problem is their tendency to be very shy when first introduced into a new system. This often leads to stress, poor feeding behavior, and disease. The key is usually introducing this fish FIRST into a system after a 6 week quarantine period.

Having said all of this, no angel grows to a foot and a half in a home aquarium. Adult size in the wild and adult size in the home aquarium are two different things for almost all larger species of marine fish. Angels are on exception. Example - you will not see a 15" adult imperator in a home aquarium that was raised from a juvenile. They grow to 8" or so, slow way down, on to 11" or so after some years, and slow down even further.
Not even in a 300 gallon tank will you grow a full sized adult. This goes for most species. There are exceptions, P. paru most notably which will bust the seams on an inadequately sized tank.

Oh, and while you should feel free to visit Wet Web as Mandarin suggests, I'm a member of the crew and answer queries on a daily basis. So just ask right here.


Jim

 

[MandarinFish]

True, animals can only grow to certain sizes in confined areas, but that doesn't make it right to put a large angel in a small tank (for them).

Again, I'm not blasting anyone. I'm just trying to help Mike have a healthy system... Mike has helped me many, many times.

Yes, a baby seaturtle could fit in my next 220g, and probably wouldn't be able to grow to 6 feet long. I could tell myself "No problem, I'm going to buy a 10k gallon system someday" but it's just not the right thing to do.

I'm seriously only pointing out that these large animals don't belong in small systems, not picking a fight. No flaming please. It's the weekend, so I doubt anyone is going to come guns-blazing on this one.

But our husbandry practices, as a hobby, need to improve dramatically. I'm guilty of making stocking mistakes.

I wouldn't put a big angel in a 6' tank. A couple years ago, with less knowledge I would have. I didn't understand as much then. Just because an animal is attractive doesn't mean it belongs in a small captive system.

I know you're not gonna throw down big cash on a small fish Mike, but there are some cool pygmy's, captive bred here - http://www.rcthawaii.com/purchase/1.htm

Good discussion.

Jim - what do you know about capture methods for angels? Aren't most from Indo-Phillippines and cyanide caught?

 

[Anonymous]

hehe Jake, I don't even need to click the link to figure out those are probably the resplendens dwarf angels. The ones that go for $700-1000 each??


Btw, does anyone remember a semi-recent (past few months or so) article on a particular type of large angel, I think it may have been the Magestic people are talking about, but can't remember if it was AA or RK online mags.

 

[MandarinFish]

Hey now - the Interruptus is only $650 (I noticed he raised his price, but I'm not shopping for one.... yet)

Multifasciatus is $120

Thanks for considering my opinion and taking it the right way Mike. I'm obviously well intended and trying to give people (not just you or I) some food for thought RE: appropriate choices for our systems.

The reefs and wild stocks of fish are in grave danger. For everyone as informed or conscientious as those on this board there are probably 100 that are buying fish and are not, or don't even care.

They just want the pretty fish for $20. He11, they probably outnumber us 500 to 1 or more.

The large angels are nice animals though, no argument here. I reminded myself of how cool those Watanabes are, so I'll probably get a few.

 

[Anonymous]

True, animals can only grow to certain sizes in confined areas, but that doesn't make it right to put a large angel in a small tank (for them).

Most certainly. Just saying, when say planning a tank for say an imperator, plan on a 10" fish rather than a 15" one. It's important to know which species grow to which size under which conditions. Most people have no clue about this.
Angels, like wrasses and surgeons, need more space than just their physical mass alone would seem to indicate, as you have eluded to I believe.

As far as cyanide collecting goes, the most certain way to avoid it is to purchase a Christmas Island species, or a tank raised specimen. Cyanide fishing has been reduced dramatically in many localities. Which areas and to which extent is outside my scope of knowledge.
Another of my fellow Crew members might have more input here.

Jim