tank crash, please help.

[jason_s79]

not sure what to do here, running a 46g bow with 30-40 lbs. live rock, an eheim pro filter and 175w 10K metal halide. last week I lost a sailfin tang, seemed fine the night before, acting normal, moving fine, next morning he's dead. he was the newest fish in my tank, had only been in for about a month. the next day my clown was hanging out around the top corner of the tank, seemed stressed. but the two nigers and two damsels were acting fine. all water tests seemed in check aside from ph and nitrate. so I did a 7 gal water change(same morning I found the tang dead) and buffered.
so two days after the death of my tang I wake up to find everyone dead, alot of hermits out of the shell, about 1000 dead what appear to be shrimp, small white/clear look a little like fleas, hundreds of bristle worms, and a few yet to be identified worms. there were also very small critters flipping around. look alot like a clear stingray minus tail, about 2 - 3 times the size of a pencil lead.
at this point most of the hermits that kept to there shell are seeming fine, and the bristle worms ar pulling other larger worms out of the rocks and eating them. also i have a minor apasia(sp?) outbreak.
I guess the main question is do I view this as a total loss, break it down and start over, or is there something I can do to save what I have.
thanks in advance for any and all help,
Jason

 

[Anonymous]

Start at the beginning.
What are/were your water parameters?
What type of water are you using?
What type of circulation do you have in your tank?
How often do you do water changes and clean your filter?
So you had 2 Odonus niger (Niger Triggerfish), a Zebrasoma sp (Sailfin Tang), a Clownfish and Damsels all at the same time in a 46 gal tank?
What else was in there?
That's a lot of bioload for that size tank.
I have a sneaking suspicion what happen but I await your answers to my questions.

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[jason_s79]

water parameters pre water change were nitrates around 40ppm, salinity 1.024, 0 nitrites, 0 amonia, ? phos., and ph about 7.9. low I know.

after water change I planned to test the next day but EVERYTHING died so I havent checked it as of yet. the only thing I checked after I changed water, and buffered was salinity which was still 1.024.

as far as circulation I had up until about a week before the crash a 300 gph marineland powerhead, but it took a crap on me, so all I have at the moment is the eheim, which is supposed to pump 156 gph.

I change 5 gallons every other week using the culigan mans r/o system at meijer. dont know if that is very good, but it seemed better than tap water to me. I clean the filter every other month and the pre filter sponge weekly

aside from the fish I had about 20 total red and blue leg hermits and 4 astrea(sp?) snails. 1 small zoo frag, and a small star frag.

 

[The_Big_Fish]

Check for phosphates, Copper, and check your temp.
Also has any one been doing any major house cleaning lately near the tank or in the same room?
Is it possible some one has gotten over spray in to your tank from a cleaning agent?
Aside from your temperature ( which remains to be seen. ), and your nitrates ( which depending on which kit your using is not that bad but need corrected). Your PH is a little low but nothing to harmfull. I see nothing that would provoke a tank crash based on those parameters.
You do use dechlorinator in conjunction with your poor-mans RO/DI unit right? I hope so or thats your answer.

 

[Anonymous]

Seven sorta nailed it.
The begining of the end was the powerhead going out one week before the crash.
There was too much bioload in a 46 gal tank with just the Eheim for circulation. Your critters died from the lack of oxygen.
Add at leat 2 more powerheads to agitate the water surface, clean up the remaining dead critters and slowly stock you tank over the course of about 3 months. Do not overstock with big fish. About 5 to 8 small fish would be fine in a 46 gal tank, not tangs and triggers.

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[jason_s79]

yeah removed all of the dead. temp is 78 deg. use a large tub to mix water a bit before the change, and it is only used for that purpose. the only possible solution I could come up with is my fiances chincilla cage being kept in the same room. they take baths in pumice dust. dont know if that would be the killer, but it does tend to dust alot of things in the room. as far as o2, not sure that would be it only because those fish had been together for many months and done fine. the sailfin was new, but he was a replacement for a yellow tang that had been in the tank for about 2 1/2 years.
also I was under the assumption that the unit at the store dechlorinated the water, so I took no special steps in that regard.
either way Im pretty new to this still, so any advice is helpful.

on a seperate topic what is the deal with people using only live rock and a skimmer for filtration? why does this seem to work so well? with everything dead it seems the perfect time to change my setup, just dont know which way to go.

 

[MelanieF]

jason_s79:

You wrote "as far as circulation I had up until about a week before the crash a 300 gph marineland powerhead"

Then davidmohr replied "The begining of the end was the powerhead going out one week before the crash.
There was too much bioload in a 46 gal tank with just the Eheim for circulation. Your critters died from the lack of oxygen."

then you wrote "as far as o2, not sure that would be it only because those fish had been together for many months and done fine."

...If I'm correct david's point was not that you had those two fish together it was that a main part of your circulation was lost which caused the lack of oxygen... I would say that having those two fish in your tank DID however contribute to your "nitrates around 40ppm" which is not healthy in any tank. Can they survive for a while? Sure... Will it make them less healthy and less able to cope with other problems? Also sure.

Hope that helps and FWIW, in my 72 bowfront reef I have 3 green chromis, 1 lyretail anthias, 1 firefish, and 1 sixline wrasse and since my tank has been up an running for over two years I just added a green mandarin. And I feel I'm pushing the limit with that many fish... I've tried keeping kole, powder blue, yellow and caribbean blue tangs with no luck. The biological load is just too much as to keep them healthy they need to eat all day long and I'm sure you've seen how healthy of a waste load they release... you would need to spend some serious $$ w/ your size tank to be able to take care of their waste and then you have to look at the fact that they need more swimming room than you can provide with your current tank.

Don't get discouraged... pretty much everyone in this hobby wants a bigger tank than they have but the discipline is to make sure you only stock what your current setup can handle.

 

[jason_s79]

I should have stated that this tank was puchased in late september last year. it had been up for 2 1/2 years at that point running nothing but the eheim, and came with some live rock( I added a considerable amount), the two mentioned damsels, one clown a clarki I believe, a yellow tang and a very large lunar wrasse around a foot in length.

I felt the wrasse was way to large for the tank, and traded him to the local fish store for the two nigers. around a month later I added the powerhead to the tank. and about a month after that lost the tang.

also I did move every drop of water that was in the tank when I moved it.

thanks for all your help everyone, the short time I've known this place existed has helped my learning curve alot.

 

[Anonymous]

Dump the eheim and get a skimmer...the eheim is a nitrate factory.

I read through, and "you mixed up your water shortly before the change" which is also very detrimental. You must mix up change out water for around 24 hrs. + to reach proper ionic balance.

Sailfin tangs don't even belong in a 75 gallon. They get very large.

Test for copper in your tank.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with everyone here. If you can eliminate poisoning by metals or chemicals, then the tank is deffinitely salvagable. The rock too.


I think you suffered a catastrophic downward spiral when the power head gave out and the first fish died. Look at it this way...your tank was on the brink of destruction from day one. Too many fish, not enough circulation, relatively high nitrates for a reef tank. So when the powerhead broke, O2 went down. The fish may have died of something else all together, but even without that, the death of hundreds of worms, pods, and small crabs in the rocks and sand would have created a hell of a mess. Then it all went down hill as water quality dropped and more things died.




Now that everyone put forth reasons for this collapse, I think what you are asking is how you can salvage your tank. If nothing poisoned it, you should do massive water changes and get rid of anything dead. Put another powerhead in there for circulation.

After a month or so, your system should be stable again.

In the mean time, you should get a decent skimmer. This is a worth while investment. I think that might be one of the only things people here will agree on. And trust me, if you can get 10 reefers to agree on something, it's worth listening to. :lol:

You should have enough rock to act as filtration right now, but 10 more pounds wouldn't hurt. Also, since you had a breakdown, you may have lost some good life that you want back now, so it would be a good idea to add some rock before you add any new fish...that way, you can let the rock sit for a few weeks and you will be sure any fish parasites that came in on the rock will die in your fishless tank.

Now, with 50 pounds of rock in that 46 gallon tank, and with a skimmer, you should be able to get away with very few water changes if you stock the tank lightly. And this is the key to your future success. Instead of all those fish, you should go with just 3 or 4 moderately sized fish. No tangs, no big meat eaters like triggers. Just some nice small reef fish.

For example, in my 75 gallon, I have only 4 fish, three of which are pretty small. I do water changes when I want to...once every few months and I went a whole year without one once without any ill effects. And my nitrates are always below 5ppm. If I had more fish, I would actually have to work on my tank. Who wants to do that? :wink:

 

[jason_s79]

the majority of the worms aren't dead but they worry me. are they a good thing? or should they be destroyed? they are everywhere. in the liverock, in the gravel and in the transition shells for the hermits.

Dump the eheim and get a skimmer...the eheim is a nitrate factory.

so I should run nothing but the skimmer? or are you saying get a skimmer and something other than the eheim?????

Instead of all those fish, you should go with just 3 or 4 moderately sized fish. No tangs, no big meat eaters like triggers. Just some nice small reef fish.

what kinds of fish are we talking?? clowns are ok right?

 

[Anonymous]

the majority of the worms aren't dead but they worry me. are they a good thing? or should they be destroyed? they are everywhere. in the liverock, in the gravel and in the transition shells for the hermits.

Dump the eheim and get a skimmer...the eheim is a nitrate factory.

so I should run nothing but the skimmer? or are you saying get a skimmer and something other than the eheim?????

Instead of all those fish, you should go with just 3 or 4 moderately sized fish. No tangs, no big meat eaters like triggers. Just some nice small reef fish.

what kinds of fish are we talking?? clowns are ok right?

The bristle worms are good. The scavenge. A natural part of a healthy reef.

Not sure if you should run only a skimmer. Some poeple do. You might want to run a power filter with no biomedia in it and just some carbon and filter media just to take out floating particles and keep the water cleaner.

Clowns should be ok for that sized tank. lots of other fish too.

 

[jason_s79]

yay! I'm glad I can save it. In the next month or so I will have the money to buy 10-20lbs rock, and a skimmer. been looking at that remora, hopefully thats a good choice. maybe I'll ebay the ehiem or put it on one of my fresh tanks.

thanks alot for all the help and knowledge.

 

[Anonymous]

so I should run nothing but the skimmer? or are you saying get a skimmer and something other than the eheim?????

Most people run just a skimmer. Seven is right, with one addition....skimmer+live rock+ good circulation/flow

I have the above, but I also have a hang on back (hob) wet dry. There is no "filter media" in it at all. I use it for surface agitation (very important for gas exchange) and a place to put carbon and phosban in.

I would dump any canister. Even devoid of filter media, they get gunked up quickly. I had one for a while, and every time I opened it up, there was an abundance of crap in there. Nitrates dropped 20-30 ppm when I removed it. It is difficult to clean as well. Better off, if anything, with a hang on back like a whisper or millennium.

 

[saltank]

FWIW, I also have a 46gal bf

1-2"ls 50-60lbs lr
A large ball of macro aglae
a remora protein skimmer - that is it for filtration and nutrient removal

Fish = one clown, 2 damsels, one yellow tang (recently added to help keep the marcro in check-I don't have a sump to house the macr) AND I plan on upgrading to a 72gal tank soon so the tang will be moved to that

My nitrates do not climb above 5-10, ph very steady at about 8.3, salinity 1.019, alk approx 3.0 (slightly higher if I buffer), calc approx 370

Powerheads = 2 for circulation (one is a powersweep, my tank seems to love it and one rio 800 - I know they get a bad rap but I have had good success with them for years). There is also a rio 800 attached to the remora skimmer. I do use the prefilter box with the skimmer so it skims the surface of the water and I have one of the powerheads up high enough so it agitates the surface quite a bit. That also creates a cool shimmer effect for the lighting.

I do a 5gal water change one to two times per month depending on how busy I am (CPA in tax season currently). I use a 5gal container located in a storage room behind the tank that drips a slow diluted kalk mixture for topoff water. If I find alk dropping I stop the kalk drip for a few days/maybe a week and adjust the levels using Seachem reef builder for alk and turbo calcium. This process has seemed to work well so far (tank up about 1 1/2 years).

Corraline growth has been awesome and the life in the tank is incredible(cyclopods, worms, starfish, snails, etc everywhere). I tried to keep the setup simple and did a lot of research on the berlin method before setting this tank up(decided not to go with dsb). It seems to be well-balanced and hopefully will stay that way.

FWIW I was VERY careful and slow to add bio life. I have mostly soft corals but also lps and a couple other easy hard corals. I hope this info helps out and give you some hope.

Oh yeah I do occasionally fire up a small canister filter to polish the water but actually haven't done that in a few months.

BTW the yellow tang is not only keeping the macro in check but also seems to suck up some detritus off the sand too - he has been a great helper of keeping the tank clean (he even picks algae growth off my powerheads). I have said enough, good luck with your tank.

 

[Anonymous]

My nitrates do not climb above 5-10, ph very steady at about 8.3, salinity 1.019, alk approx 3.0 (slightly higher if I buffer), calc approx 370

Your sg sems really low....1.019? as well, the alk and calc seems really low. I am suprised you are getting good coralline.

 

[Anonymous]

I also have a 46 g BF. I have a reef tank and have some fish in it as well, but I attempted to offset the biolad by adding a sump. I have a yellow tang, 2 clowns and a flame angel. I have lots of different critters in there from snails and hermits to bristles and stars. I also keep SPS and LPS in there. I move alot of water though. I have 4 MJ1200 and I am circulating from the sump with a mag12. I am running a CPR BakPak2r as well. I have a 1.5 inch sand bed and about 60 lbs of LR for filtration. I do water changes monthly about 10% or more. My corals are growing nicely and I haven't lost any fish since I first set it up. My parameters are Nitates 5, Nitrites 0, ammonia 0, temp 76, SG 1.026, ph 8.2, CA 460, KH 16. I believe in a lot of water movement and my water is pushing through enough so that detrius really can't settle on the bottom, large chunks will, but the crabs get those pretty quick. I have a sponge in my overflow that serves 2 purposes, one to filter out floating debris, and to dampen the noise of the overflow. 46g is a good starter tank but as was previously mentioned, this is only a temp until we move into a larger house so my wife can have her dining room back lol. Then I will upgrade to a 90.

 

[saltank]

Really low? My inhabitants haven't seemed to have a problem including my inverts...

Anyhow alk in oceanwater is supposedly around 2.9, so why would 3.0 be really low?

It seem that a lot of reef keepers maintain levels WAY above those in the animals natural environments (i.e. calcium 450? alk 3.9 or 4.0) sure it will provide more corraline growth, but is it really necessary?

I will post a pic and you can judge for yourself, the back wall is about 95% covered after less than 1 1/2 years of the tank being up. The corraline will grow so long as the levels are MAINTAINED. That is why I drip kalk.

 

[Anonymous]

Hasn't anyone discussed the fact this all happened after adding two trigger to a 46g. I though that should have been enough to cause all these problems.

 

[Anonymous]

Really low? My inhabitants haven't seemed to have a problem including my inverts...

Anyhow alk in oceanwater is supposedly around 2.9, so why would 3.0 be really low?

It seem that a lot of reef keepers maintain levels WAY above those in the animals natural environments (i.e. calcium 450? alk 3.9 or 4.0) sure it will provide more corraline growth, but is it really necessary?

I will post a pic and you can judge for yourself, the back wall is about 95% covered after less than 1 1/2 years of the tank being up. The corraline will grow so long as the levels are MAINTAINED. That is why I drip kalk.

Reefkeepers keep the levels up as protection, so they dont have to worry about pH levels dropping when the buffer is at a minimum, thats all. If you are spending the time to test or maintain it on a very regular basis, it isnt low for you then.