Cardinalfish - they TRY to breed...Help?

[mpedersen]

FishFinatic2 suggested I try posting my woes to a more general (high traffic) forum such as this one. My original thread is kept up at:

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=78161

as well as two other boards...

Anyway, I have three species of cardinalfish. I've now had 4 unsuccessful broods of Apogon margaritophora (or, if you prefer, A. margaritophorus) - the Lattice Cardinalfish. The males are just refusing to hold the eggs to term...our "#2" male is particularly bad, consuming his batches in 2-5 days. Male #1 went 11 days on his first spawn in our tank, but has since lost out in the courtship matches and has not yet had the opportunity to brood again.

I've tried contacting a forum member on another site who actually has had some experience with this exact species - alas I haven't heard any replies from this individual (who has been inactive for a year over there). I *think* I've read just about every online resource I can find on breeding cardinalfish of ANY species/genus. I've even tried contacting ORA, twice, my emails get forwarded to a hatchery manager and that's the last I ever hear.

Now, I have brine nauplii, rotifers and copepods all in culture, ready to go. This evening, all THREE SPECIES of cardinalfish in the tank are courting....if I'm lucky it'll be the Apogon leptacanthus who spawn this time (the Pterapogon kaudernii I *think* are too young yet...last time I had a spawning of these 10 years back they were at least twice as large...aka. full adults).

Diet wise these fish are getting nothing but the best - besides live brine nauplii (which is always on culture...that way I get my practice in now) they get enriched Mysis, 2 brands of enriched brine, Cyclopeze, and if they'd just EAT it, chopped frozen krill. NONE of the cardinals show any interest in any prepared foods (no flakes, pellets etc).

So, cardinafish breeders - I could use any/all help! It's sooooo disheartening to watch the same male eat the eggs three times!

Anyone?!

MP - [email protected]

 

[wereef]

I am not at all familiar with breeding cardinals but my LFS does. they captive breed banggai so I was just wanting to suggest maybe you contact them because maybe they can help.

My LFS is Inland Aquatics in Indiana. Try to contact Morgan or one of his staff at [email protected] or give them a call at (812)-232-9000

HTH
wereef

 

[Anonymous]

Gosh, I am stumped. Those are amazing videos though! Great thread!

My experiences with Pterapogon kauderni have been that the male really wants to hold onto those eggs. The only two scenarios I have ever had one loose his eggs before they were ready were: If he was starving, really starving, as in he picked up a new batch immediatly after letting the last one go and before he could eat, and even then sometimes even then he would hold them to term. Or there was one time when I was trying to remove a male with eggs and got really frustrated and perhaps over zealous with the net and scared him and he spit them out.

Sounds like you have the food covered.

One thing I am wondering is if there is some bickering going on between the various males of different species going on, maybe at night when you don't see it? I have noticed that the banggai can be active at night. I must admit when I read your thread I was suprised that you can keep males of different species of cardinals together, because I have found that two males of Pterapogon kauderni absolutly will scrap with each other once they get larger.

Good luck! Don't give up, this is very very cool.

 

[mpedersen]

Thank you both for the comments!

Laura, surprisingly it is the suspected FEMALE bangaii who's really the "terror" in the tank. If she's in the mood, she'll chase ALL the other cardinalfish except her mate. Granted, I still *think* the Bangaii's aren't sexually viable yet.

So far no new spawnings to report...the female Lattice Cardinal is still ripening and with a couple back-to-back 2-day fasts, that could put her "behind schedule" for a bit. Meanwhile the Threadfins didn't commit, and they're back to their usual casual attitude towards tank life.

The one that's frustrating me at the moment is our pair of Firefish...the smaller fish (suspected male based on how he displayed to our suspected female amoung a group in our dealer's tanks) is sticking tight to the bolt hole and NOT getting enough food - he looks a bit skinny. I really feel that these guys are on a spawn, possibly their second, but I have now way of knowing other than to observe their behavior....there's NO WAY to get a good look into their shared "nest". Well, daily rotifer dosings can't HURT my tank...have to keep those cultures in check!

Have a great holiday weekend - maybe we'll get a surprise from the Cardinalfish Santa while we're away!

Matt

 

[mpedersen]

Spoke too soon on the Bangaii's - they spawned this afternoon - their first. We'll see (bad time to be out of town for 4 days!).

MP

 

[Anonymous]

Well, I hope they hold it!

My female banggai was a real terror too. She never bullied the male except to gently herd him away from the other fish when he had eggs. However, if he had eggs and I put my face up to the glass, she would come after me! She would charge and flash her fins and open her mouth to bite at the glass, periodically checking to make sure the male was still well hidden.

It was a hoot!

 

[Anonymous]

Try feeding the Cardinals minced Scallops soaked in Cod Liver oil for 3 months

Be sure you have an excellent skimmer first though.

 

[mpedersen]

Guy, you can't be serious... FWIW the bangaii male dropped or ate his eggs somewhere over our 4-day holiday weekend. 0/4 on A. margaritophorus, and now 0/1 on Pterapogon kaudernii.

MP

 

[Anonymous]

Guy, you can't be serious...

I am totally serious.

I didn't mean soak the scallops for 3 months, I meant to try feeding the fish for three month with minced scallop that have soaked in Cod Liver Oil and see if he can then hold to term.

 

[mpedersen]

LOL, that makes a lot more sense. I presume you've used this in the past? What dietary need would this fill (i.e. raising OMEGA-3's)?

I really appreciate that input!

Matt

 

[Anonymous]

HUFAs I believe but I'm not really a nutritionist. I would imagine SelCon would work just as well since I think the primary ingredient is Cod Liver Oil. The oil is just a lot cheaper and doesn't have to be refrigerated. I know that in my system the Banggai fed Cod Liver Oil produce 2 to 3 times as many fry to term as those fed the same foods without the oil. There is actually a visible size difference in newly hatched fry and the larger fry can immediately start feeding on Prawn Eggs instead of having to hatch Artemia for the smaller mouths.

For reference, I hit the 1000 Banggai sold mark about 18 months ago. I no longer keep track nor do I feed the Banggai without using the oil.

You MUST have a good skimmer though. I'll say it again, you MUST have a good skimmer.

 

[LA-Lawman]

instead of feeding artemia can u use cyclop-eeze? I have a buddy whos cardinals just spawned... he looking for artemia..

 

[mpedersen]

Guy, you ROCK with those answers. Thank you greatly..if you want some Captive Raised A. margaritophorus, you've earned a couple when I finally crack their code (besides, I really dont know what else to do with all the fry SHOULD I get them to size...not enough room to rear mass quantities here). Just drop me an email when I finally post a note about a good batch (if you're interested).

I've actually been doing some Selco enrichment on Live Brine, which they do get occasionally as I've been keeping cultures of rotifers and brine going in anticipation of finally getting fry. I have two bottles of the stuff, so I guess there's really no issue with using it on the frozen foods as well.

Here's the full rundown of what's going in the tank. Hikari Frozen Mysis and Brine (both "fortified"), San Fransisco Bay Frozen Brine (again, enriched, but with a totally different formula, at least what I can gather from the label), Hikari Krill (but they won't touch it, so really NOT part of their diet), Cyclopeze (yup LA Lawman, been using it from the get-go) and Live Brine (nauplii fed with Phytoplex and PhytoFeast through the first few instar stages before I ditch a batch and restart).

So here's the update. Last night I watch the Cardinals all go hot & heavy again. The Apogon leptacanthus were courting in their "subdued" way but did not spawn. The A. margaritophorus were ready and willing to spawn; both males yawning and again distending their lower jaws. I watched them for 4 hours straight last night...caught on video what I suspect where a few "dry runs" at the actual spawning manuever. Basically, the male and female would get side-by-side, hover & quiver, then the male would turn around and dash "down current", then come back along side the female.

However, male #2 (our infamous egg eater) would not leave the pair alone as things got "hotter and heavier", kinda like he wanted to sneak in and fertilize the spawn since he apparently did not win the courtship competition this time around. His presence kept the pair away from an actual spawn...they spent the last 2 hours chasing him around the tank, only to get right back to their side-by-side positioning and he'd come all the way back from the other side of the tank and settle in with them again. It was obvious that male #1 was PO'd, but he never went psycho on #2 (as I hoped he would).

I have't turned the lights on yet, so I don't know if a spawn occured overnight. We'll find out soon enough.

Matt

 

[Anonymous]

I'm very interested. Do they get along OK with Banggai?

There is another option if you really can't get the male to hold to term. That is to build an egg incubator. This will require you to strip the eggs from the male before he eats them. Let me know if you're interested in building one.

 

[Anonymous]

Cod liver oil is way high in Vitamins A and D. It does also contain the Omega 3 fatty acids eicosapentanoic acid (EPA) and docosohexanoic acid (DHA).

So I wonder if it is the A and/or D, or the Omega 3s (HUFA's) doing the trick or both?

Vitamin A and D are more difficult for the body to eliminate excess, as they are fat soluble vitamins that can be stored in the body. When including cod liver oil in the diet of mammals, one must be careful not to go crazy with it as vitamin A toxicity can occur supplementing CLO along with natural dietary sources of A. I wonder if since Guy's fish do so well on food soaked in cod liver oil, does this mean our fish are normally deficient in these vitamins?

I know when I make fish food, the fish and shrimp I buy have been "cleaned" already. So the food I make does not contain the organs such as liver (high in vit A), and is thus not as close to a natural diet as I would like, which is one reason I feed silversides too, they are guts and all.

I think I am going to have to start soaking my fish food in CLO and see if I notice anything!

(sorry, I am just rambling out loud, researching the nutrition of my mammal pets has been an interest of mine for a while, maybe I will cross over into fish too!)

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not disagreeing but I think you need to be careful comparing Marine Fish with Mammals. That would explaing why it works for me though!

 

[mpedersen]

Guy, I currently have the mated pair of tank-raised Bangaiis, a reverse trio of the Lattice Cardinals, as well as a suspected reverse trio of Threadfins (A. leptacanthus), + 4 other fish, all happy and breeding in a 24 gallon nanocube. So, yup, they get along

I've started soaking their mysis and brine in Selcon since I already have two bottles handy...can't hurt!

Matt

 

[mpedersen]

Well Guy, we got our next spawn this evening. Can't tell if he ate it all or just *part* of it...he sure is FAT!

Let's keep our finger's crossed!

MP

 

[Anonymous]

Mine are crossed for you!

 

[mpedersen]

Well Guy, our dual-crossed fingers didn't help..the spawn is gone in record time....

I used to run a Cichlid Hatchery/Wholesaler and did a lot of breeding; I'm assuming what you'd use to incubate Cardinalfish eggs would be the same as an egg tumbler for mouthbrooding Africans? I *may* just have to try that.

What I noticed last evening was that male #2, the "loser" in this round of spawning, was harrassing male #1 quite a bit once he had a mouthful - up until that point #1 was dominant. So that could have played a role. Another thing I'm considering is blacking out the sides of the tank...I'm in this room all the time and well, perhaps all my movement isn't helping (even though the fish pretty much recognize and associate me with food).

HMM.

Matt