Cyano problems. Big. Please help...

[Mihai]

Hi,

For the past 2-3 months I had an increasingly nasty cyano problem. At
least I think that it's a cyano problem (please see the pics): it's a
film that I can suck up with an air-tube and it makes bubbles until it
starts floating. It's not like the cyano I got in the beginning, but I
think that it's cyano anyway.

A bit of background: system is 4 years old, 90 gals display + 20 gals
upstream fuge + 75 gals sump. Nothing significant happened until 2-3
months ago except for a drop in Ca and Alk (then an over-correction on
Alk that lead to a storm, but by that time the cyano was already in
full swing).

From what I know cyano problems are due to:
- phosphates
- low oxygen
- low flow

The phosphate test came negative (as zero as it gets), for oxigen -
it's hard to believe: I have an euro-reef skimmer (RS100 I think)
running 24/7, the return from my fuge fills my display with bubbles
and the drop from my display fills my sump with bubbles. There should
be *plenty* of oxygen in there. Also I have the sump running on
reverse cycle and I have chaeto in the sump.

Other things I tried: increase Ca and Alk - at some point I got the
storm, now it's back to normal, tested for nitrates - zero, changed
bulbs both in the fuge and the tank, sucked the cyano and threw away -
nothing helped. Actually after sucking the cyano, it seems to come
back worse than before (at least sometimes).

My fuge that has lower flow than the display does get more cyano than
the display, but I have significant quantities of cyano right under
where a MaxiJet 1200 is hitting the glass of the tank. Also, all over
the glass (both front and back).

It also seems that later in the day (towards the end of the cycle) the
cyano is slightly backing off..

It clearly bothers the corals, smothering some. It killed one colony
and now it's decimating the Xenia, Anthelia and some Briareum (even
the GSPs are affected). I'm assuming that this slaughter is what is
currently fueling it (the skimmer is foaming out of the cup). Any
ideas on how to stop this slow-moving tank crash?

I know about the antibiotics, but if I can help it in any way I'd rather remove the cause rather than the effect...

Any ideas are welcome!
Thanks!
Mihai

BTW, in case that PLB reads this, yes I have a large clump of
Chaetomorpha in the fuge but it's not growing at all - I assume it has
to do with the lack of nitrates and phosphates. Maybe...

 

[Anonymous]

Random thoughts since you seem to have covered most of the bases here...

What type of salt are you using, what/how are your feeding the tank and are you adding any additives? Also, do you have a DSB or what for substrate?

 

[Mihai]

Salt: instant ocean (since the beginning)
Feeding - about 1.5 - 2 cubes worth of mysis and home-made food (all sorts of shell fish, white fish, nori, seaweed, etc.)
Yes, I have a DSB in the display.

Also - probably important detail: I think that the whole episode started with the death and decomposition of a leather coral that grew between the rocks and got overshadowed by a Montipora capricornis.

Thanks,
Mihai

 

[TheJGMProject]

what type of lighting do you have? my dad had a bad cyano problem and he changed is bulbs and keep the lights off for a couple of days. i guess something with gases in the PC's he had started to dissapate and the cyano was flourishing because of it. sorry i'm not so specific.

good luck!

 

[Anonymous]

Looks more like dinoflagellates to me. A real pain to get rid of - they are probably one of the photosynthetic varieties if its spreading that fast.

The slimy bubbly brownish strands are a dead giveaway. What I would do is this (having battled outbreaks twice in my now defunct 300 gallon system).

1. Turn off ALL lights for at least 48 - 72 hours on the system.
2. Cover the tank with a blanket or sheet and keep any stray sunlight out - these things are remarkably adept at using even minimal light to photosynthesize.
3. Raise PH to at least 8.4 - 8.5, some suggest 8.6.
4. Do large (30% or so) water change at end of this then I'd run the regular battery of carbon to clear up anything left over from the dying dinoflagellates.

After the 2 - 3 day period most will be gone if not all. These organisms have very small energy reserves and depriving them of light they will starve quickly. If you are worried about your corals - don't, they will be fine for a few days without light.

As for not reading any phosphates as is typical of many of these algaes and bacteria like Cyano they are remarkably effective at sequestering phosphates. Additionally there are many phosphate compounds not all of which will be detected by your standard hobbyist kit - the best you can do is minimize the amount with good husbandry.

 

[Mihai]

TheJGMProject - indeed my bulbs were old (both the PCs in the fuge as well as the 2x250W DE HQI MH in the display). I also thought that maybe they lost the high frequency components (the ultraviolets) and that's what allowed this stuff to grow. But after replacing them (in the fuge 3 weeks ago and in the display 2 weeks ago) nothing happened. They don't seem to care about the bulbs...

Mike, thanks for the tip. The treatments sounds a bit scary - do you feed the fish during those 2-3 days? I have 3 x social wrasses, a pair of green mandarins, a pair of clowns, 1 green chromis, 1 royal gramma. Also I have a bunch (3) of green BTAs - how do they take 3 days of dark?

Also, this seems to be treating the effect rather than the cause: it seems that if I miss a couple of them (or only one if they are not sexual) I'll get them all right back: what is the root cause of this?

Thanks,
Mihai[/b]

 

[ufotofu]

Those algae don't become a problem unless something is in there for them to utilize for a food source. Lower algaes like those also usually don't gain a foothold unless the macro, corallines, etc don't have superiority. Maybe the higher algaes didn't have the nutrients, lighting, etc. they needed to sustain their populations so the nutrients were passed on to the single-celled variety - they're always there waiting for you to give them an opportunity.

Take away their food source and they'll die. Good husbandry will keep the nutritional sources from biulding up again. It may have been further exacerbated by the poor lighting. Now that you've added new bulbs it might just take some time for the tide to turn in favor of the good algaes. These things don't happen over night as much as we'd hope they would.

Dunno how much food 2 cubes works out to be, but you might consider reducing the amount you are feeding or feeding just what will be eaten and no more. Try turning the pumps off while feeding so it all doesn't just get blown around and end up under a rock decomposing. Also, try decanting the pack water from the food before feeding - it's just extra nutrients to foul the water. I soak my food in Selcon for 24-36 hours prior to feeding then strain the food so I'm adding minimal waste water to the tank.
Are you topping off (and mixing new salt) with RO/DI water?

I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching to you. I, too, have battled many an algae outbreak. I agree with Goldstein that with good husbandry this, too, shall pass.

 

[Anonymous]

Mihai - fish will be ok for a few days - you can actually feed the tank some still the biggest thing is depriving the dinos of light. Actually you can probably ignore raising the ph like I said unless it's abnormally low (under 7.9 - get it to 8.2 at least - no more than .1 pt per day to avoid shock).

The more I look at your pics I am convinced those are Dinos and I'd treat accordingly. Other suggestions like increased flow and making sure bulbs haven't lost spectrum can't hurt.

 

[Mihai]

ufotofu,

thanks for the enouragement. The coralines have been deprived of Alk for a brief period (2-3 weeks), and that's when things started to go downhill. I'll reduce the food intake as all my fishes look fat (I saw all fishes feed in the rocks anyway). The pH is 8.2. And yes, I use RO/DI water for all new water and top-off (although the DI part is probably off at the moment).

M.

 

[ihopss]

Have you added rock or sand lately

 

[Mihai]

Nope, nothing new lately.

Now, one positive outcome of this outbreak is that my flatworms completely disapeared! That's one way to get rid of your flatworms! Now I need to get rid of the cure .

M.

 

[saltank]

I had a similar experience when a small starfish died in my 46gal reeftank, by the time I found it it had decomposed quite a bit and did something to the water chemistry; it was soon after that I experienced a LENGHTY outbreak of either cyano or dino

I also had to change my pc bulbs, they were more approx. 1 yr old. Changed my ro/di filters, performed weekly 10% water changes, started rinsing my frozen food with ro/di water straining it through a small net - several months later the outbreak started dying back. Oh yeah, I also had a period of low calcium and alk which coincided with the death of the star fish. I am convinced that toxins released from the death initiated this outbreak through a change in water chemistry.

The dying of your flatworms may actually add to the nutrients/toxins in the water, fueling the outbreak you are experiencing. I believe they too will release some toxins back into the system when they die off. The nudibrach that is known for eating flatworms is in part protected from predators due to the toxicity of its flesh from eating the flatworms.

I would focus on good husbandry, water changes, fresh bulbs which you have done, perhaps cut back a bit on the feeding and rinse the food well with fresh ro/di water and maintain the alk and calcium levels.

Do you ever polish the water? (storm the tank and filter out the suspended detritus?) This stuff build up tremendously over time and will decompose and release back into the system. You could treat the symptons by turning the lights off, I'm not sure it will eradicate the problem though. The effect that the decomposed leather coral had on the water chemistry may only be reversible through a regime of regular water changes over a long period of time. Running carbon will speed up the process of removing the toxins.

HTH - Good luck

:wink:

 

[Mihai]

I just started some carbon yesterday and it seems that it already is a tad better. Maybe it's just an illusion. I'm also starting a series of large water changes (large is relative: 30 galons in a 230 gal system), perhaps this would do it without the drastic measures.

I think that the fish should be OK without light and food (probably if I feed them they can't see it), but I worry about the annemones (BTAs). I hope I'll not have to get to do it.

Thanks,
Mihai