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clekchau1

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vitz":1tq5h1ay said:
trilinearmipmap":1tq5h1ay said:
This thread shows why this forum has gone from a leading internet reef forum to a forum ignored by 99.9% of reefers.

When I started researching my first reef tank about six years ago this forum was had a stature equal to RC. In fact I felt that this forum generally had more thoughtful posts and valuable information than the other forum

Things have gone downhill badly here. I am not sure when. I rarely visit this forum any more and the sort of mudslinging I see in this thread is one of the reasons why.

There are good points and bad points about this guy's turf algae filter. A healthy debate and discussion would benefit everyone here. However the criticisms of his threads are nothing short of moronic. I have no respect for people who post personal attacks against others on this or any other web forum.

Quite simply, this forum is no longer relevant for most reefers, largely because of the moronic sort of posts contained in this and other threads. That is why I no longer spend time on this forum. Interestingly while I stayed away from RC for many months, recently I have been back there and the levels of discussion and information there has improved markedly.

In short this forum is a sinking ship populated by rats.

I should note that I do not know the original poster, and I do not have a turf scrubber although I am considering building one.


did you read the outlandish title of the original thread ?

did you read the link that completely dismisses the entire premise of the thread title/first posts of santa's ?

did you notice how not ONE reply was made to any factual challenge presented here to santa, and that he blatantly and completely misrepresented the replies made here to other bb's, without even providing links so others could see EXACTLY what was said by the 'critics' ?

do you applaude self imposed ignorance, and encouraging others to be so as well?


obviously, countering nonsense, outlandish claims, blatently false statements with research and experience isn't your cup of tea

e-i'm a tad confused, - if you're one of the ones 'running away' from here, are you a rat by your own definition ? :? :roll:

his claims are outlandish but his attempts to build a better (yes not new but perhaps a spin on old technology) way of keeping a successful reef deserves more tact than your unentertaining and annoying critique.

i think people can judge for themselves if they want to try this out without your immature rantings, instead of criticizing him, why don't you either help him in a positive way or just leave the thread?
 
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vitz - You take a lot of heat for playing point man!

clekchau - In looking at the way these threads have panned out all over the net, it seems that SantaMonica has taken a fair bit of abuse/feedback/criticism but has learned very little, if anything, from it. It's funny how so many forums and so many people would have such a similar response to his postings. The way SM has pushed 'head-down' seems to have polarized many of the players...it appears that some persons who might not have been inclined to take a side felt compelled to do so in response to his joisting methods. Is that the fault of the responders or is it a systemic problem with the way SM supported/validated his uber claims? I would point to the latter. It's too bad he couldn't find/learn a way to turn it into a healthy debate so he could build on the intelligence and feedback of the doubters to revise his designs and/or claims.
 
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miwoodar":h2y0tycw said:
... It's too bad he couldn't find/learn a way to turn it into a healthy debate so he could build on the intelligence and feedback of the doubters to revise his designs and/or claims.

He does seem impervious to it, and I cringe at his current advice about dosing iodine. This is a really bad idea in light of his pushing his agenda as being aimed at the new hobbiest or those who wish a quick fix without understanding the whys of the situation. Iodine dosing is tricky even for experienced reefers, and "just doing it" is sort of like giving a monkey a straight razor to play with. Sooner or later someone is going to get hurt ;)
 
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clekchau":3pq4ux71 said:
vitz":3pq4ux71 said:
trilinearmipmap":3pq4ux71 said:
This thread shows why this forum has gone from a leading internet reef forum to a forum ignored by 99.9% of reefers.

When I started researching my first reef tank about six years ago this forum was had a stature equal to RC. In fact I felt that this forum generally had more thoughtful posts and valuable information than the other forum

Things have gone downhill badly here. I am not sure when. I rarely visit this forum any more and the sort of mudslinging I see in this thread is one of the reasons why.

There are good points and bad points about this guy's turf algae filter. A healthy debate and discussion would benefit everyone here. However the criticisms of his threads are nothing short of moronic. I have no respect for people who post personal attacks against others on this or any other web forum.

Quite simply, this forum is no longer relevant for most reefers, largely because of the moronic sort of posts contained in this and other threads. That is why I no longer spend time on this forum. Interestingly while I stayed away from RC for many months, recently I have been back there and the levels of discussion and information there has improved markedly.

In short this forum is a sinking ship populated by rats.

I should note that I do not know the original poster, and I do not have a turf scrubber although I am considering building one.


did you read the outlandish title of the original thread ?

did you read the link that completely dismisses the entire premise of the thread title/first posts of santa's ?

did you notice how not ONE reply was made to any factual challenge presented here to santa, and that he blatantly and completely misrepresented the replies made here to other bb's, without even providing links so others could see EXACTLY what was said by the 'critics' ?

do you applaude self imposed ignorance, and encouraging others to be so as well?


obviously, countering nonsense, outlandish claims, blatently false statements with research and experience isn't your cup of tea

e-i'm a tad confused, - if you're one of the ones 'running away' from here, are you a rat by your own definition ? :? :roll:

his claims are outlandish but his attempts to build a better (yes not new but perhaps a spin on old technology) way of keeping a successful reef deserves more tact than your unentertaining and annoying critique.

i think people can judge for themselves if they want to try this out without your immature rantings, instead of criticizing him, why don't you either help him in a positive way or just leave the thread?

er- i and others initially DID try to help out in a positive way, and were shown that santa has no desire to actually learn anything, even when he definitely doesn't know better

all of YOUR criticisms would never even surface if you had actually bothered to READ the threads in their entirety :)

santa had done absolutely NOTHING new here, other than to turn a turf scrubber into an aquatic eco aqualizer ;)
 

clekchau1

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vitz":dufvbqt9 said:
clekchau":dufvbqt9 said:
vitz":dufvbqt9 said:
trilinearmipmap":dufvbqt9 said:
This thread shows why this forum has gone from a leading internet reef forum to a forum ignored by 99.9% of reefers.

When I started researching my first reef tank about six years ago this forum was had a stature equal to RC. In fact I felt that this forum generally had more thoughtful posts and valuable information than the other forum

Things have gone downhill badly here. I am not sure when. I rarely visit this forum any more and the sort of mudslinging I see in this thread is one of the reasons why.

There are good points and bad points about this guy's turf algae filter. A healthy debate and discussion would benefit everyone here. However the criticisms of his threads are nothing short of moronic. I have no respect for people who post personal attacks against others on this or any other web forum.

Quite simply, this forum is no longer relevant for most reefers, largely because of the moronic sort of posts contained in this and other threads. That is why I no longer spend time on this forum. Interestingly while I stayed away from RC for many months, recently I have been back there and the levels of discussion and information there has improved markedly.

In short this forum is a sinking ship populated by rats.

I should note that I do not know the original poster, and I do not have a turf scrubber although I am considering building one.


did you read the outlandish title of the original thread ?

did you read the link that completely dismisses the entire premise of the thread title/first posts of santa's ?

did you notice how not ONE reply was made to any factual challenge presented here to santa, and that he blatantly and completely misrepresented the replies made here to other bb's, without even providing links so others could see EXACTLY what was said by the 'critics' ?

do you applaude self imposed ignorance, and encouraging others to be so as well?


obviously, countering nonsense, outlandish claims, blatently false statements with research and experience isn't your cup of tea

e-i'm a tad confused, - if you're one of the ones 'running away' from here, are you a rat by your own definition ? :? :roll:

his claims are outlandish but his attempts to build a better (yes not new but perhaps a spin on old technology) way of keeping a successful reef deserves more tact than your unentertaining and annoying critique.

i think people can judge for themselves if they want to try this out without your immature rantings, instead of criticizing him, why don't you either help him in a positive way or just leave the thread?

er- i and others initially DID try to help out in a positive way, and were shown that santa has no desire to actually learn anything, even when he definitely doesn't know better

all of YOUR criticisms would never even surface if you had actually bothered to READ the threads in their entirety :)

santa had done absolutely NOTHING new here, other than to turn a turf scrubber into an aquatic eco aqualizer ;)

i read the entire thread here and your the other one on reef central also, NOTHING new about a person like you either who makes assumptions that are completely wrong and does nothing to help our hobby. because we all know, there is only one way to maintain a successful reef tank and any new ideas, whether its bb tank, carbon dosing, going skimmerless or gasp a new way to build a turf scrubber should be laughed at and ridiculed. congratulations, you are far smarter than us, please continue to educate us dumb reefer wannabees the wisdom of keeping a successful reef tank and continue to riducle people who are passionate about trying to solve one of the most common problems in our hobby. reefs.org is a much better place with you here, bravo :roll:
 

Ben1

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In a natural environment there are no skimmers or mechanical filtration what so ever its all done by nature itself which is basically what we are trying to achieve surely?

I always lol when people try to compair closed system aquariums to the ocean.

Like I have said before there are more then one way to run a reef tank, but if you are having hair algae issues in your system, its time to check your husbandry techniques.
 
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Ben":1n6jqdwj said:
In a natural environment there are no skimmers or mechanical filtration what so ever its all done by nature itself which is basically what we are trying to achieve surely?

I always lol when people try to compair closed system aquariums to the ocean.

Like I have said before there are more then one way to run a reef tank, but if you are having hair algae issues in your system, its time to check your husbandry techniques.

turns out, however, that there IS both skimming and mechanical filtration going on all over the place in/near many reef environments

what do sponges and dusters do ? ;)
 
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clekchau":1azhb1mt said:
vitz":1azhb1mt said:
clekchau":1azhb1mt said:
vitz":1azhb1mt said:
trilinearmipmap":1azhb1mt said:
This thread shows why this forum has gone from a leading internet reef forum to a forum ignored by 99.9% of reefers.

When I started researching my first reef tank about six years ago this forum was had a stature equal to RC. In fact I felt that this forum generally had more thoughtful posts and valuable information than the other forum

Things have gone downhill badly here. I am not sure when. I rarely visit this forum any more and the sort of mudslinging I see in this thread is one of the reasons why.

There are good points and bad points about this guy's turf algae filter. A healthy debate and discussion would benefit everyone here. However the criticisms of his threads are nothing short of moronic. I have no respect for people who post personal attacks against others on this or any other web forum.

Quite simply, this forum is no longer relevant for most reefers, largely because of the moronic sort of posts contained in this and other threads. That is why I no longer spend time on this forum. Interestingly while I stayed away from RC for many months, recently I have been back there and the levels of discussion and information there has improved markedly.

In short this forum is a sinking ship populated by rats.

I should note that I do not know the original poster, and I do not have a turf scrubber although I am considering building one.


did you read the outlandish title of the original thread ?

did you read the link that completely dismisses the entire premise of the thread title/first posts of santa's ?

did you notice how not ONE reply was made to any factual challenge presented here to santa, and that he blatantly and completely misrepresented the replies made here to other bb's, without even providing links so others could see EXACTLY what was said by the 'critics' ?

do you applaude self imposed ignorance, and encouraging others to be so as well?


obviously, countering nonsense, outlandish claims, blatently false statements with research and experience isn't your cup of tea

e-i'm a tad confused, - if you're one of the ones 'running away' from here, are you a rat by your own definition ? :? :roll:

his claims are outlandish but his attempts to build a better (yes not new but perhaps a spin on old technology) way of keeping a successful reef deserves more tact than your unentertaining and annoying critique.

i think people can judge for themselves if they want to try this out without your immature rantings, instead of criticizing him, why don't you either help him in a positive way or just leave the thread?

er- i and others initially DID try to help out in a positive way, and were shown that santa has no desire to actually learn anything, even when he definitely doesn't know better

all of YOUR criticisms would never even surface if you had actually bothered to READ the threads in their entirety :)

santa had done absolutely NOTHING new here, other than to turn a turf scrubber into an aquatic eco aqualizer ;)

i read the entire thread here and your the other one on reef central also, NOTHING new about a person like you either who makes assumptions that are completely wrong and does nothing to help our hobby. because we all know, there is only one way to maintain a successful reef tank and any new ideas, whether its bb tank, carbon dosing, going skimmerless or gasp a new way to build a turf scrubber should be laughed at and ridiculed. congratulations, you are far smarter than us, please continue to educate us dumb reefer wannabees the wisdom of keeping a successful reef tank and continue to riducle people who are passionate about trying to solve one of the most common problems in our hobby. reefs.org is a much better place with you here, bravo :roll:

could you please tell me which of any of the above mentioned 'ideas' or ways is new?

look-we basically have someone who started a whole bunch of threads all over the internet stating falsehoods, misrepresentations, and plain ol' lies born out of total and utterly complete ignorance

would you take advice on how to take care of a tank from someone who's initial preference was to let a maintenance company do it, and who's only been in the hobby for a year ?

are you arguing the true merits of the devices/methods, or are you simply playing defender for an arrogant pompous ignoramus who cried foul when his completely unfounded dogma was utterly shot down by those who know better?

ask around-for years i've been helping out many noobs like santa,on this bb and others, as well as in the respective chat channels on irc, and possibly yourself, with good, common sense advice/approaches on how to take care of marine ornamentals-something i started doing in the mid/late 70's

never ever ever have i ever stated or implied that there's only one way to do things, or that my methods are superior to others-the ONLY thing i've done on all of santa's threads is to address the FALSE 'information' and FALSE claims about what the methods actually do :idea:

i'm fairly amused how all of the 'positive' responses never deal with what a test result actually means vis-a-vis the production vs consumption rates of organics that hobbyists test for ;)

having a zero PO4 reading MEANS NOTHING, without adressing rate of production vs rate of removal ;)

or, for that matter, how santa won't provide links to the posts from those who think that a decades old, decades tested, and pretty much decades proved waste producer is the best thing since sliced bread!

his claims are outlandish but his attempts to build a better (yes not new but perhaps a spin on old technology) way of keeping a successful reef deserves more tact than your unentertaining and annoying critique

i (obviously) don't agree-if your particular sensibilities are offended,well, so it goes

santa's misinformation and insistence on recommending things out of complete lack of understanding will hurt and damage far more hobbyists and livestock than i could if i TRIED to give crappy advice to people-i've seen this type of farce go on too often, and for too long-just wait until the folks who are riding his particular band wagon start to get critical or ask questions bout scrubbing that he can't answer-dollars to donuts he'll play the hurt noble yet again, with cries of 'ad hominem!' and attempts to play personalities instead of issues ;)

but rest assured-if i ever see you posting a question or problem that i know the answer to, i'll refer you to santa with his whole year of basically non-experience :) (after all, i wouldn't want to offend you with actual facts, now, would i ? )
 
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Vitz and I have not always got on down below, but up here he gives direct, honest advice that you'd do well to listen to. Sure's he's a little blunter than some, but believe me, you ain't seen nothing. :wink:
 

blackcloudmedia

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Ben":360yl0h2 said:
In a natural environment there are no skimmers or mechanical filtration what so ever its all done by nature itself which is basically what we are trying to achieve surely?

I always lol when people try to compair closed system aquariums to the ocean.

Like I have said before there are more then one way to run a reef tank, but if you are having hair algae issues in your system, its time to check your husbandry techniques.

lol I couldnt find who you quoted from but thats great....just shows the true lack of understanding of what a flippin WAVE does :lol: Lets take Florida for example. According to Stateofflorida.com florida has 2276 Statute miles of tidal shorline. Assuming about 20 feet of water is doing the skimming along the shoreline ( though waves often crash out further) And assume 2 feet deep water just for quick calculations, your looking at 2,081,200.6 gallons of water constantly skimming the ocean around Florida :roll: . And that was a VERY conservative guestimation. LAWLZ!
:Uh hi Corallife? Yes Id like to order the 2 million Gallon per second skimmer model.....whats that? ONLY THE OCEANS HAVE THAT?????
 

clekchau1

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vitz,

why would anyone take advice from you? what advice do you have to give that people like anthony calfo, bob fenner or randy holmes farley hasn't already written articles about? have you written any articles? do you have a tank of the month that wins the admiration of others worldwide like oregon reef? i'm just curious as to how you qualify to critize someone who is obviously passionate about this 'method' and willing to help anyone and everyone set something up similar.

if you are out to prove him wrong, instead of making immature retorts, why don't you prove him wrong by setting up 3 10 gallon aquariums, one with carbon dosing, one with an ats and one with a refugium and compare which one effectively removes po4 and nitrates more efficiently during a 1 month course etc? sure someone with your expertise and knowledge can easily do that?


oh wait, its much easier to criticize from the sidelines with childish jokes, i get it, frankly not only are you annoying, you are childish.
 
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http://www.marine.usf.edu/videos/2007-01-26.wmv

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 061206.php

Coral death results from bacteria fed by algae
Coral (Acropora) from the Line Islands covered by bubble algae (Dictyosphaeria)
Click here for more information.
(Santa Barbara, Calif.) �� Bacteria and algae are combining to kill coral �� and human activities are compounding the problem.

Scientists have discovered an indirect microbial mechanism whereby bacteria kill coral with the help of algae. Human activities are contributing to the growth of algae on coral reefs, setting the stage for the long-term continued decline of coral.

Reporting in the June 5 on-line version of the scientific journal Ecology Letters, scientists described laboratory experiments on coral and algae.

First author Jennifer Smith, a postdoctoral fellow at the National Center for Ecological Analysis and Synthesis (NCEAS) at the University of California, Santa Barbara, explained that the team of scientists, as part of a research expedition to the Line Islands, put algae and coral in chambers of seawater with filters between them. All of the corals with neighboring algae died, while coral without neighboring algae did not die. However, with the addition of an antibiotic, coral death even in the presence of algae was prevented, showing that bacteria fed by the algae are the agents of coral death. "We are the first to link these processes together," said Smith.

"This study tightly links the fields of microbiology with coral reef ecology to help guide reef conservation efforts," said senior author Forest Rohwer, assistant professor of microbiology at San Diego State University.

"Our study shows that bacteria are the front line that kill corals," Smith explained. "Algae release sugar, fueling bacterial growth on the corals. These bacteria suffocate the coral by cutting off the supply of oxygen. Once the corals die, this frees more space for more algae to grow. We think this process sets up a positive feedback loop that accelerates the rate of decline in already damaged reef ecosystems."

The report describes the other conditions that put coral reefs at risk. Overfishing reduces the number of fish that graze on algae, thus increasing the amount of algae on the reef. Nutrients from sewage and agricultural run-off fertilize the algae. Warmer water and more intense hurricanes resulting from global climate change are also blamed for coral death.

"Anyone who has been to the tropics and has had the experience of diving on a coral reef will not deny the spectacular beauty of these systems," said Smith. "They support numerous species of animals and plants and many species that remain undiscovered to science. These ecosystems are particularly important to humans because they support abundant fisheries �� commercial, subsistence, and recreational �� and they generate a large tourism industry."

She added that the reefs themselves protect coastal areas from erosion. From a biological perspective, coral reefs are more productive and support more species than any other marine ecosystem on the planet. While more reefs die every year due to an onslaught of human impacts, many scientists are hopeful that it is not too late to stop the destruction. She mentioned that there is a lot of excitement within the scientific community to begin working towards reef restoration and recovery in areas that have been heavily degraded.

Co-author Enric Sala said, "On certain coral heads I witnessed about half of the coral alive and half dead and covered by fleshy algae. In between the living half and the algae there was a 'band of sickness and death.' I thought, as many others did, that the corals were dying because of a disease, something unknown. But what we found is that the algae are enhancing the coral disease."

Sala is leader of the Line Islands Expedition (http://sio.ucsd.edu/lineislands) and is an associate professor at UC San Diego's Scripps Institution of Oceanography. He is also deputy director of the Center for Marine Biodiversity and Conservation there. Sala explained that for hundreds of thousands of years there have been natural disturbances, such as hurricanes, and coral reefs have always recovered. But now, because of threats such as global warming and pollution, the reefs are losing their ability to recover because humans are adding so many more disturbances to the ocean ecosystem. "In the same way that we take care of our bodies and treat illnesses, we cannot pretend to have healthy coral reefs by addressing individual threats," he said. "The human shadow is longer than we thought and there are invisible, lethal threats that we induce."

Co-author Stuart Sandin, a postdoctoral researcher in Sala's group, said, "This research highlights a little-appreciated, yet critically important interaction between algae and corals, key players on the coral reef. As algae become more abundant on reefs, through the effects of overfishing and pollution, there are indirect effects that accelerate further loss of corals. On the flip side, however, if algae are controlled by abundant fish populations, then the reef gains a capacity for recovery from other forms of disturbance, like hurricanes and sea warming."
 

blackcloudmedia

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clekchau":1o3ani3s said:
vitz,

why would anyone take advice from you? what advice do you have to give that people like anthony calfo, bob fenner or randy holmes farley hasn't already written articles about? have you written any articles? do you have a tank of the month that wins the admiration of others worldwide like oregon reef? i'm just curious as to how you qualify to critize someone who is obviously passionate about this 'method' and willing to help anyone and everyone set something up similar.

if you are out to prove him wrong, instead of making immature retorts, why don't you prove him wrong by setting up 3 10 gallon aquariums, one with carbon dosing, one with an ats and one with a refugium and compare which one effectively removes po4 and nitrates more efficiently during a 1 month course etc? sure someone with your expertise and knowledge can easily do that?


oh wait, its much easier to criticize from the sidelines with childish jokes, i get it, frankly not only are you annoying, you are childish.

Oh theres a bright idea...Hey I just invented something...now you have to prove its wrong otherwise its good to go
 

clekchau1

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blackcloudmedia":18ig8ert said:
clekchau":18ig8ert said:
vitz,

why would anyone take advice from you? what advice do you have to give that people like anthony calfo, bob fenner or randy holmes farley hasn't already written articles about? have you written any articles? do you have a tank of the month that wins the admiration of others worldwide like oregon reef? i'm just curious as to how you qualify to critize someone who is obviously passionate about this 'method' and willing to help anyone and everyone set something up similar.

if you are out to prove him wrong, instead of making immature retorts, why don't you prove him wrong by setting up 3 10 gallon aquariums, one with carbon dosing, one with an ats and one with a refugium and compare which one effectively removes po4 and nitrates more efficiently during a 1 month course etc? sure someone with your expertise and knowledge can easily do that?


oh wait, its much easier to criticize from the sidelines with childish jokes, i get it, frankly not only are you annoying, you are childish.

Oh theres a bright idea...Hey I just invented something...now you have to prove its wrong otherwise its good to go

here's another bright idea, lets ruin a guys different approach at addressing a problem with multiple solutions by crapping in his thread rather than showing him his idea doesn't work

nahhhhh much easier just crapping on him in his thread, carry on, you provide this forum with so much good advice
 
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clekchau":173rimdq said:
vitz,

why would anyone take advice from you? what advice do you have to give that people like anthony calfo, bob fenner or randy holmes farley hasn't already written articles about? have you written any articles? do you have a tank of the month that wins the admiration of others worldwide like oregon reef? i'm just curious as to how you qualify to critize someone who is obviously passionate about this 'method' and willing to help anyone and everyone set something up similar.

if you are out to prove him wrong, instead of making immature retorts, why don't you prove him wrong by setting up 3 10 gallon aquariums, one with carbon dosing, one with an ats and one with a refugium and compare which one effectively removes po4 and nitrates more efficiently during a 1 month course etc? sure someone with your expertise and knowledge can easily do that?


oh wait, its much easier to criticize from the sidelines with childish jokes, i get it, frankly not only are you annoying, you are childish.

:lol:

i'm not out to prove anything-don't have to, as it's ALREADY BEEN DONE!!

anyone who claims that a skimmer doesn't remove phosphates or nitrates as fact is a blithering idiot and a tool-it's been established for DECADES by commercial wastewater treatment facilities that it does, and its a method that was already in existence quite awhile before sw ornamental keeping went 'mainstream'

i wasn't aware that writing articles is what makes one knowledgeable, or an expert, on anything, nor was i aware that having a totm does so as well

i know what i know, and i know how and why i know it-would you like me to list my cv and qualifications ?



again-the 'experiments' you desire to see HAVE ALREADY BEEN DONE-use your brain, get some gumption, and do some research :)

if you're so tired of what you label as 'childish responses', you always have the option of not encouraging them to begin with ;)

you remind me of the character who pm'd me 3 times on RC during the santa discussions, who took offense that i didn't spoon feed him like a baby

i owe you NOTHING,NO explanations-demanding help/info is not the way to get it from someone.

google is your friend-i'm not ;)
 
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SantaMonica":1pb8bw24 said:
Also, pulsing the flow is not easy:

sure it is but you won't take advice from me :lol:

I'll give it to you anyways :twisted:

simply use a SQUID or SQUIRT and have one of the outlets not on the "screen", or you could use what I used to install large amounts of on the ATS style systems I used to do back in the day....electronic ball valves.
 
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