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Anonymous

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Charlesr1958":j6kvgwvt said:
coprolite":j6kvgwvt said:
Charlesr1958":j6kvgwvt said:
Those tank kept corals that do not tolerate temp swings very well do so simply because they are kept at constant temps which only serves to weaken them.

Do you have any experimental evidence to support this assumption?

Do you have any experimental evidence to support the assumption that placing an animal in unnatural stagnation is good for them?

Chuck

Yes. Thousands of thriving reef tanks in peoples homes. Of course, there is that stagnation word, which seems to be a straw man interpretation of what people are actually saying.

Since you are the one that is making the statement of opinion like it is fact, it seems it is up to you to supply evidence of its actuality and not up to others to defend straw man arguments.
 
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Charlesr1958":2qo04ic4 said:
coprolite":2qo04ic4 said:
Charlesr1958":2qo04ic4 said:
Those tank kept corals that do not tolerate temp swings very well do so simply because they are kept at constant temps which only serves to weaken them.

Do you have any experimental evidence to support this assumption?

Do you have any experimental evidence to support the assumption that placing an animal in unnatural stagnation is good for them?

Chuck

Stable is not stagnant.

Is keeping a perfectly stable calcium and alkalinity level "stagnation"?
How about a perfectly stable salinity, is that "stagnation"?
 

jandree22

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Thales":27q54hm5 said:
Charlesr1958":27q54hm5 said:
coprolite":27q54hm5 said:
Charlesr1958":27q54hm5 said:
Those tank kept corals that do not tolerate temp swings very well do so simply because they are kept at constant temps which only serves to weaken them.

Do you have any experimental evidence to support this assumption?

Do you have any experimental evidence to support the assumption that placing an animal in unnatural stagnation is good for them?

Chuck

Yes. Thousands of thriving reef tanks in peoples homes. Of course, there is that stagnation word, which seems to be a straw man interpretation of what people are actually saying.

Since you are the one that is making the statement of opinion like it is fact, it seems it is up to you to supply evidence of its actuality and not up to others to defend straw man arguments.
Bravo. Well said.
 

jandree22

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Here in my office, the air is a steady 75*F. I have my fan blowing a flow of air in my face. I wouldn't call my situation stagnant. So +1 for Stable ≠ Stagnant

Just because I can go outside and survive day/night temperature fluctuations (because that's what nature provides me, after all) doesn't mean that's what I prefer. Steady ideal temps stress my body/immune system MUCH less. How are you to prove that corals are any different?

Burden of proof is on you, Chuck. Steady temps have long been proven as successfuly husbandry, so significant proof of why steady temps are so significantly worse than steady needs to be shown. If people were having all sorts of issues with corals not surviving because of steady temps, then you come along with years of a problem free coral thriving reef tank... you'd have an argument. Problem here, just in case you're missing the big picture, is people AREN'T having widespread problems with steady temps. You're barking up an empty tree.
 
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:| Wait a minute folks. What Chuck is saying, that a level of stress can actually benefit (in this case corals) is already known elsewhere. What happens to the human body in outer space unless it is stressed (via certain types of exercise)? It degrades and degenerates.
What happens to trees not exposed to snow yearly as they're growing when they suddenly get a snowload? They snap.
What happens to certain plants if not exposed to heat and cold and sun and wind? They end up with weak stalks that cannot support their foliage and/or blooms.

In ALL cases all organisms do just fine if allowed to "stagnate" (remain stable, unchanging). But are they doing their best? No, of course not. All here would accept that argument in these cases. Why can this that is known NOT be extrapolated to coral in home aquaria? That's what I'd like to know.
 

jandree22

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stag·nant (stgnnt)
adj.
1. Not moving or flowing; motionless.
2. Foul or stale from standing: stagnant ponds.
3.
a. Showing little or no sign of activity or advancement; not developing or progressing; inactive: a stagnant economy.
b. Lacking vitality or briskness; sluggish or dull: a stagnant mind.


sta·ble 1 (stbl)
adj. sta·bler, sta·blest
1.
a. Resistant to change of position or condition; not easily moved or disturbed: a house built on stable ground; a stable platform.
b. Not subject to sudden or extreme change or fluctuation: a stable economy; a stable currency.
c. Maintaining equilibrium; self-restoring: a stable aircraft.
2. Enduring or permanent: a stable peace.
3.
a. Consistently dependable; steadfast of purpose.
b. Not subject to mental illness or irrationality: a stable personality.
4. Physics Having no known mode of decay; indefinitely long-lived. Used of atomic particles.
5. Chemistry Not easily decomposed or otherwise modified chemically.


Notice how 'stagnant' refers to the concept of flow above anything else? :wink:
 

jandree22

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seamaiden":2dd4c4l0 said:
In ALL cases all organisms do just fine if allowed to "stagnate" (remain stable, unchanging). But are they doing their best? No, of course not. All here would accept that argument in these cases. Why can this that is known NOT be extrapolated to coral in home aquaria? That's what I'd like to know.
This arguement applies more to the concept of varied flow, ie wavemakers. I get stronger by exercising and moving my body, not by alternating between hot and cold.
 
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It is helpful to agree on definitions of terms when there is a strong disagreement in discussion, so that is actually helpful for us all to clarify ourselves, Jandree. Thank you.

But, how do you know that exposure to heat and cold does nothing to you, physiologically, that increases your overall health? Also, variation in temperature is indeed one important stressor for plants and corals (for anything that lives outdoors, really), so again I ask, how does anyone know that in the case of corals it does NOT extrapolate to more vigorous health of the given organism to have variety in temperature (obviously within natural parameters)? At a certain point it actually becomes counterintuitive to me.
 

jandree22

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I do see where you're coming from, but I just don't buy the argument about hot/cold yeilding any benefit for an organism. Even seasonal temp changes don't seem to have much of a purpose for plants... plants seem to have adapted to accept temp changes by sheading their leaves and going into dormancy in the winter, but seems to me this if more of a protection mode as they can't handle active growth in the winter. I'm digressing a bit here, but my point is that there's really indication to me anyway, at least in the plant world, that temp fluctuations serve a purpose for enhancing their health.

Is there any documented evidence that humans live better or worse depending on the climate they live in? For example, the difference between those living in the tropics vs those living in the arctics is how many layers of clothes, if any, they wear. But longevity seems more based on diet and activity level than temperature.

Also, I could cause my body stress by walking around barefoot all day long, but all that would result is getting calused feet. Calused feet vs uncalused feet really doesn't make any significant difference except for a few dead layers of skin. Not all stress, for the sake of stressing the body, ultimately yields significant difference in long term overall health. My personal feeling is that temp falls into the category, organisms are built to accept temperature changes by a means of survival, not as furthering their ability to accept it.

If I were inside a climate controlled house @ 72*F for an entire year, chances are on day 366 when I step outside into 90*F air, I will have to adjust because I'm not physically used to it, but ultimately, my body didn't lose any tolerance to that level of heat over the year. It's not like sweat glands die off and go inactive just because they're not being used.

All just my opinion and understandings.
 
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I disagree, I think your body has lost its ability to tolerate that type of temperature.

You're focused on temperature only, whereas I'm talking about stressors in general. For corals, temperature is one known stressor.
 

jandree22

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Well, I’ll bow out of this one and agree to disagree by conceding that ultimately you and/or chuck may be correct with this one. Furthermore, I’m a strong believer in ‘the butterfly effect’ which has notable mention here.

However I’m also a strong believer in the KISS approach, and it’s a lot easier to maintain a constant temp in home aquaria successfully, than to mimic temperature fluctuations the way nature intended it to. Usually when people in aquarium keeping discuss temperature fluctuations, it’s because of undesired circumstances like the power went out or MH’s are on too long. If anyone wants to try to mimic temp fluctuations to the tune of perfecting nature in their home reef aquarium, I’m all for seeing the results… but that’s a HELLUVA lot of added work and stress (to the reefkeeper) when constant temps seem to the vast majority of reefkeepers to do the trick quite successfully. Unless you’re a researcher, I just don’t see the point in messing with what already works.
 
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No worries, Jandree.

However, I would suggest that it's actually easier to allow tank temps to fluctuate, given how this thread and so many others have begun. :) I will say this with absolute certainty -- the reefs inside the only harbor on Guam, on the military base side of the harbor, were GORGEOUS. And there was massive temperature fluctuation. I saw THE biggest leathers that I have ever seen right there in that tiny harbor. Huge plating corals, branching corals, and lots and lots of sponge growth. No gorgonians, and very few invertebrates, the majority of what I saw was vertebrate life. Going through my dive computer's log I see that on one dive there was a difference not just of depth, but of temperature, and that temp difference went from 84F at 3-5meters depth to 75F starting at about 10meters. That's a HUGE difference, in my opinion, and I sure felt it.
 
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Charlesr1958":25p91aau said:
Okay, nuff is a nuff...lol Yes, I made broad general statements as was my intention to answer the original question or concern about fluctuating temps. And I stand by my broad general statement that such fluctuations are perfectly normal and acceptable. The temp ranges I gave per indo-pacific corals is hard data and yet I also raised the question of why all of the species of corals are found in such temp ranges and are reduced in coral species and cover the farther away you get from that center? I thought the answer would be obvious. Which is simply that for the majority of coral species, such a temp range is optimal for them. If it wasn't, then explain to me why ALL of the indo-pacific species are in that temp range and not so in cooler reefs.
Now at the same time, while I am making general statements I also obviously failed to make myself clear when I speak of "natural" verses "artificial", that subject can be nit picked to death which a few are attempting to do. So in an attempt to clarify my meaning, Natural to me is the biological actions and reactions that occur regardless of WHERE they are, be it a reef or be it a tank. Of course there are circumstances that can be different, be it too much of one thing or not enough of another, possibly more pronounced in a tank, but the biology remains the same. At the same time, it also means to me that the animals have specific biological needs that have specific environmental ranges. Period.
As per corals doing well outside of what has to be an optimal temp range (80-84) I never said there were not cooler reefs, but I guarantee you that such reefs have less diversity, and that none of them have stable, stagnant temps. And yes, I also believe that slight fluctuations of any parameter adds to the coral's / reefs vitality, strength, call it what you will. I see salinity change from 1.022 - 1.024 over the course of a few days and back again, I also see it daily with my own system as water evaporates over the course of the night and then changes again when I do my once a day top off. I do so knowing full well that the reefs get the same every time it rains, and in the tropics, thats a fairly common event.

NOTHING on a reef is stable and yet everything thrives, so why is stagnant stability such a desirable thing? and reasonable fluctuations something to fear? THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE!

Oh, and I am glad to hear that stores or suppliers are starting to make it known where specific corals are coming from, and I still bet the majority of them come from indonesia and yes, the Philippines even though its illegal to export from the Philippines. Its nothing to rip up a reef here and take it back to indonesia and export them as indonesian corals, same with the jewelry trade, I've seen entire sections of reefs ripped up and piled onto the beaches to "cure" for a few months before being exported from....? Not to mention the numerous cargo containers of live corals that are found bound for Hong Kong and.... indonesia. Makes me wonder how many of you have Philippine corals...lol

Chuck

Very little PI coral is smuggled into the states and you know this. So little it's not even worth mentioning :roll: I hate to say it but I just lost a bit of respect for you Chuck and you know in the past I've highly respected you.
 
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seamaiden":366h797i said:
lly), so again I ask, how does anyone know that in the case of corals it does NOT extrapolate to more vigorous health of the given organism to have variety in temperature (obviously within natural parameters)?

We don't know if that is or isn't the case, which is what I think is at the core of a lot of the posts in this thread. It being a hypothesis is one thing, saying it is fact is quite another, and trying to point this out often leads to thread just like this one. :D
 

Charlesr1958

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GreshamH":girs9w2l said:
Very little PI coral is smuggled into the states and you know this. So little it's not even worth mentioning :roll: I hate to say it but I just lost a bit of respect for you Chuck and you know in the past I've highly respected you.

Actualy I don't know this and from what I have seen and been told of in the news here, such smuggling would and is very easy to do. Indonesia is very nearby and its nothing for the collectors to stroll into Philippine reefs, collect a boat load of corals and take them back to Indonesia and export them as Indonesian corals, thus making them perfectly legal and no need to smuggle anything. Being a poor economy, marine patrol and enforcement here is a joke, and a good deal of the time, if one wishes to do so, a simple bribe to an island's (theres more than 7,000 islands) chief or mayor turns a blind eye. The chinese are often caught as well, catching live food fishes off the reef to take back to Hong Kong. In other words, its pretty much a free for all here.
With such poor patrol, enforcement and corruption, the number of actual arrests indicates to me that there is a great deal more going on than meets the hobby's eyes. The only saving grace that the reefs have here are the resorts that adopt the reefs in front of their properties and post guards.
When I first moved here, Linda and I used to snorkel over a pristine reef near our home, it was beautifull, we got busy and our next trip over the reef a year later was devastating. The reef was gone! I don't mean just a few missing corals, I mean entire reef heads and most of the other structures that the corals grew upon. Its a barren waste land now. Its only when you go down the reef wall that the water's depth provides the corals with protection by simply being too deep for free diving or air compressor hoses.
But anywhooos, I'm sorry you feel that way but.... se lave.

Chuck
 
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My tank temp fluctuates from time to time, but not on a regular basis. A few degrees, as a matter of fact(2-4), and I have not had any major problems. I would think that some direct research on temp fluctuation and health would need to be done. I wouldn't do it on my dollar. I do prefer steady temp for my reef. If some solid research showed otherwise I may change. Do you really feel that anyone has replecated what Charlesr suggests?

I'll stick with what works for now.
 
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seamaiden":26gxvtgc said:
No worries, Jandree.

However, I would suggest that it's actually easier to allow tank temps to fluctuate, given how this thread and so many others have begun. :) I will say this with absolute certainty -- the reefs inside the only harbor on Guam, on the military base side of the harbor, were GORGEOUS. And there was massive temperature fluctuation. I saw THE biggest leathers that I have ever seen right there in that tiny harbor. Huge plating corals, branching corals, and lots and lots of sponge growth. No gorgonians, and very few invertebrates, the majority of what I saw was vertebrate life. Going through my dive computer's log I see that on one dive there was a difference not just of depth, but of temperature, and that temp difference went from 84F at 3-5meters depth to 75F starting at about 10meters. That's a HUGE difference, in my opinion, and I sure felt it.

I have been on many a reef in Puerto Rico that the temperature fluctuates with every wave. I cannot believe that any of us could possibly replecate this in the home aquarium. My tank goes up 2-4 degrees a day in the summer during the lighting hours and the tank is fine...or better yet thriving.
 

Charlesr1958

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Thales":34qx4fdt said:
If we are going to play the 'expert' game (that is of course ignoring the pedegrees of some of those posting in this thread) Anthony says the exact opposite of Eric in the BOCP pages 161 and 162. But I hate the 'expert' game especially when the 'experts' bash each other like Shimek did to Delbeek in the 'article' linked earlier.

I care not for and pay no attention to such things and only take what to me is good information. And within that temp article, there is very good information, not simply because he says so, but also provides the links to the data if one wishes to confirm it.

I am also a little confused, you talk about temp ranges as being optimal, but you are only taking into consideration the mean, not the actual ranges. If your point is natural is better, I am unsure why you aren't advocating letting your tank drop to 75 for a few months a year.

I am taking actual ranges into account. And yet again, we seem to be stuck on the Cebu area, while I take such readings as this is where I live, I am also taking into account that the average, year round temperature for ALL the reefs in the world combined is 82. And since I still think its highly likely that the majority of the corals collected from reefs (given CITES export/import data) come from Indonesia and surrounding nearby other countries (be it legal or not) that its a good bet most of the corals in anyone's tank was exported from Indonesia with the exception of Australian and Tongan corals.
I do not drop my tank into the 70's simply because this region's reefs do not see such temps. During the dry season, my tank and the region's reefs see a daily average of 84 and a wet season's average of 82. I am NOT saying that to go below that temp is going to kill your corals, I simply stated that for a home aquarium, a temp swing is perfectly natural and of benefit, how ever slight that benefit may be. I also stated that a temp swing range of 80-84 is also perfectly natural and not one to fear as most of the world's corals are found living in that range and that its highly likely that most captive corals came from that temp range. So while a slightly lower temp range is fine, so is a slightly higher one.
Temp swings, regardless of its acceptable ranges in of themselves are of benefit to the corals. Its gives them a resilience in order to BETTER withinstand changes, and as you said, an aquarium is subject to rapid changes or things going wrong quickly compared to a reef. It is exactly for that reason alone I would want to allow an acceptable and known temp swing to occur, so when that heater or chiller gives out, a few degrees increase for a few hours is not going to be much of a stress at all. And given others statements about the monsters (bacteria/protozoa) lurking in our aquariums, why not have corals that are more resilient to stress events which would weaken less resilient corals making them more susceptable to the monsters?

It seems you are basing the entire south pacific on what happens in Cebu, which makes little sense since we don't get any legal corals from that area, but more importantly, different areas have different temps.

Please see the above...lol

No one seems to be saying that biological reactions are different on wild reefs or in an aquarium, rather that the conditions in an aquarium and a wild reef are different. In other words, the corals act differently because the conditions are different, and I think you are discount how different captive conditions are from wild conditions.

True, but my entire point of it all is that by allowing swings and a more natural average temp based on locality we are better recreating wild conditions.

I think you are wrong about diversity on reefs that have lower temps for at least part of the year. PNG and Tonga have huge diversity and lower temps at certian times during the year that Cebu.

Granted, the indo-pacific region has a huge diversity, but... the farther you get away from the center (Indonesia and the Philippines) the less species are found. (581 Indonesia / 512 Philippines / 427 Australia / 75 India / 65 Hawaii / 55 Caribbean as a stepped up example) The Philippine number is most likely going to change to include a great many more new discoveries such as the 75 or so new ones found recently around a single island.

IMhO, stability is desirable because of the captive environment. So many things can go wrong so quickly and can snowball into really bad things so quickly, that it seems to make some kind of sense to keep things as controlled as possible to avoid 'crashes'.

Keeping everything as stable as possible to me just does not make sense in that manner, variations as experienced in nature allows the animals to better cope with variations and could help to lesson the affects of a "crash". While at the same time giving the animals (corals) one of their needed cues to breed.

The contention that stable and stagnant are the same seems like hyperbole to me - even with chillers and heaters, there are temp swings, and from the very beginning in this thread people have been talking about temp swings.

Works for me. but again, going into the 80's which seems to have freaked a few people out is perfectly acceptable. Going down into the 70's to me though doesn't make good biological sense in terms of the animals metabolism and other bodily functions while at the same time not being what I see of actual coral reefs located where there are the most species, and if there are the most species, that to me is a big glaring hint that the conditions of the area are most preferred and of higher benefit. Is lower temps than those ranges going to kill your corals, obviously not, but higher ones are not going to do so either and is most likely providing better or more "natural" conditions. AS LONG AS THE CORALS HAVE HAD THE TIME TO ADAPT TO IT. I had to shout that one as I don't want anyone to go and crank up the temp in their tank thinking its a good thing to do right away.

I think the point you say you are trying to make, that 'reasonable fluctuations are nothing to fear' is one that people don't have much of an issue with. What people do seem to have issue with, is dogmatic generalized statements that don't seem to have evidence to back them up, the ignoring of specific questions regarding your statements, and that you are basing conditions for all captive coral on Cebu, when in reality, most people have coral from many different places in their tanks.

No, I am as I said, basing conditions for all captive corals on the year round average for ALL of the world's reefs, which is a good number to shoot for if one does have corals from many different places. And for indo-pacific coral tanks, Indonesia and the Philippines are good base lines to shoot for. If you have red sea corals, or caribbean corals, you would of course want to either seriously raise the temps or lower the temps comared to the indo-pacific region.

Thanks for not going away from this thread. :D

You're welcome, but this seems to have gotten a bit out of hand, off subject and I can't see me being able to add anything more to it or being able to change my mind on what I know of and see on a daily basis. Ya all have a great week.

Chuck
 
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Thales":71i7smbe said:
Perhaps I am missing it, but I don't see anything in that mean spirited 'article' about constant temps weakening coral. He presents no evidence at all that lower temps in an aquarium are bad, just evidence that some coral reefs have higher temps than we generally keep at home.
And, like I said above, its not necessarily the temp that does damage, but the lower DO values and respiration issues in tanks that suddenly heat up.

Still waiting for a response to this one, and for some kind of evidence that shows that captive corals actually get 'stronger' due to temp fluctuations.
 

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