protect the fishes of clipperton atoll
- Thread starter clippo
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Like 3 collection trips ever have been made and of them IIRC only 1 was a commercial collection. A fully sustainable harvest. In fact, more are killed daily when people are there then ever have been collected. I hear they make excellent bait. What does need to be protected is the sharks there. They've been nearly wiped out.
clarionreef
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- San Francisco
Topics of environmental and responsible reefkeeping is where I have posted the most. [ about 2,000 total posts on environmental issues]
Over the past decade I see that Clippo has never had a thought ...not one.....about environmentally responsible reefkeeping before until now..
Humorously enough, his spark of "conscience" arrives via affiniation with a thief and murderer pirate of centuries gone by. [ English pirate, John Clipperton]
The odd pride that swells in him from this dubious connection with the island is in fact a proprietary feeling for it and he resents anyone else visiting it including people accepted by French authority.
[might be the age ol "French-English thing"...]
Glossing over all the tonnage of fish taken from the reefs of Clipperton and the chemical threat from tanker groundings, our hero has limited his plan of action to the smallest possible threat he could imagine, a few buckets of small, fast recruiting fishes.
Far better minds are at work on the need to manage Clipperton properly, rest assured. If one is unaware of them one could ask.
If one were unaware of permit procedures...one could also ask.
The French are ramping up efforts to manage the island greatly and the control over the place by marines is absolute...
You cannot visit the water around the island without permission and you cannot even set foot upon it without another type of permission.
There is no longer a tunafish or sharkfishing industry there.
There is no longer a long-range sport fishery there. Both have been completely stopped and run off by the "ineffective" French navy.
Steve
PS;
From a post on an environmental forum.
I think this early experience taught me a lot of what extreme tokenism we "good guys" often practice.
The selective way in which we propose one virtue to conceal our other faults in attempt to trump another.
Steve
Over the past decade I see that Clippo has never had a thought ...not one.....about environmentally responsible reefkeeping before until now..
Humorously enough, his spark of "conscience" arrives via affiniation with a thief and murderer pirate of centuries gone by. [ English pirate, John Clipperton]
The odd pride that swells in him from this dubious connection with the island is in fact a proprietary feeling for it and he resents anyone else visiting it including people accepted by French authority.
[might be the age ol "French-English thing"...]
Glossing over all the tonnage of fish taken from the reefs of Clipperton and the chemical threat from tanker groundings, our hero has limited his plan of action to the smallest possible threat he could imagine, a few buckets of small, fast recruiting fishes.
Far better minds are at work on the need to manage Clipperton properly, rest assured. If one is unaware of them one could ask.
If one were unaware of permit procedures...one could also ask.
The French are ramping up efforts to manage the island greatly and the control over the place by marines is absolute...
You cannot visit the water around the island without permission and you cannot even set foot upon it without another type of permission.
There is no longer a tunafish or sharkfishing industry there.
There is no longer a long-range sport fishery there. Both have been completely stopped and run off by the "ineffective" French navy.
Steve
PS;
From a post on an environmental forum.
I think this early experience taught me a lot of what extreme tokenism we "good guys" often practice.
The selective way in which we propose one virtue to conceal our other faults in attempt to trump another.
Steve
you obviously haven't read any of the articles I've written in the aquatic press then Steve.. ones that advocate buying captive bred stock, or detailing the requirements of sensitive species? or the links on my website (which exists 'to promote responsible reefkeeping' ) that point to various reefing charities, and has approaching 2000 freely accessible images and information profiles in its gallery section, which has had nearly 1 million hits since 2005?? :lol:
as I said I expected to be flamed over this.... no surprise to see particular venom coming from Steve's direction. I expect it was you or one of your cohorts that spammed the petition with foul mouthed messages? Personal attacks just show what kind of character you really are dont they! :wink: :lol: (attacking and comparing me to a long dead distant relative is particularly desperate by the way.... and you've twisted the facts too.... oh but I expect you are an expert in my family history now too eh?) Anyone genuinely interested in Clipperton the 'pirate' have alook here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Clipperton - it's very basic information unfortunately... my Father and I have extensively research his exploits and he certainly isn't a thief or murder (any more than Steve is anyway :wink
. every post you make gives me more publicity by the way.... and I haven't even got properly started with the petition yet. I'm going to make life as difficult as possible for you. I don't care how much you've posted (to be honest your messages are barely coherent most of the time)... you don't have the best interests of these fish in mind. You are certainly no environmental champion or pioneer.... you can't even ensure your imports are labelled correctly!
Fair point about the sharks by the way Gresham... I realise there are many threats facing this place but, as I've mentioned in one of the locked threads you mention, I've chosen to focus on the most immediate one in my opinion. I've thought very carefully about the aims of the petition too....I've got to be realistic. This isn't just about the location... it's about the direction of the hobby. I don't know what relevance locked threads have got anyway.... it's not me who's the one incapable of having a reasoned debate, or resorting to smear tactics at every opportunity.
It's sickening to see how quickly people have forgetten how the last shipment fared by the way. I really hope this isn't the view of the majority of US reefkeepers. Anyone buying one of these fish has blood on their hands. I wouldn't be surprised if certain parties actually wante this species to become rarer... I bet you could charge your 'more money than sense' clients an even more exhorbitant price then right?
Although I am happy for this to run, I'd suggest that the opposition will contune to try to degrade this thread... so I'd suggest that it's locked. I'd be happy for it to be pruned back to the original post at the same time but I really don't mind if not. In my view the arguments levelled against me are not reasoned at all and are obvious as being so. Fair enough if someone came back with scientific data showing that my petition is unwarranted, but they haven't. This speaks volumes imho.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
The protection of endemics in distant regions is a concern shared by many and not invented by you. Indeed, it seems the chemical tanker threat to the island alarmed more aquarists then anyone else!
The initial google lists of concern were led by aquarium people! It does seem to hold true that the aquarium trade helps make relevant issues that would otherwise gain little favor.
That was the issue as it was hijacked ....
The pirating of this thread and unfair insinuations just seems to be used by you as an opportunity to employ your last name as a player.
Speaking of pirates;
The wikipedia reference [ yours] gives little info. but one was telling.
"He was an able pilot and seaman, but also a man with faults. He was a blunt, rough, free-spoken sailor. He definitely was no gentleman, but at times tried to be one. Rash fits of rage would befall him, but he was soon appeased. Then he would be ready to repair any injustice that he had committed in the heat of anger—at least if this was possible."
Clipperton later became captain of the Success under a different privateering syndicate, in which he also held under his command Captain George Shelvocke of the Speedwell.
In his activities attacking Spanish targets on the west coast of the Americas, he used Clipperton Island as a base from which to stage his attacks and store loot and supplies,
Oh,
So he was as portrayed accurately afterall.
Its an obvious point to make that If your name were Smith or Jones, your newfound environmentalism would be restricted to a self promotional website, thats all. A website featuring many species of concern, poor captive survival records, deepwater collecting issues and environmentally irresponsible collection issues as much as any.
It could be argued that the "eye candy approach" to aquarium fish promotion excites hobbyists and dulls the senses to issues of concern.
Steve
ps, Cohorts? Really? Did you claim to be set upon by "cohorts" ?
The initial google lists of concern were led by aquarium people! It does seem to hold true that the aquarium trade helps make relevant issues that would otherwise gain little favor.
That was the issue as it was hijacked ....
The pirating of this thread and unfair insinuations just seems to be used by you as an opportunity to employ your last name as a player.
Speaking of pirates;
The wikipedia reference [ yours] gives little info. but one was telling.
"He was an able pilot and seaman, but also a man with faults. He was a blunt, rough, free-spoken sailor. He definitely was no gentleman, but at times tried to be one. Rash fits of rage would befall him, but he was soon appeased. Then he would be ready to repair any injustice that he had committed in the heat of anger—at least if this was possible."
Clipperton later became captain of the Success under a different privateering syndicate, in which he also held under his command Captain George Shelvocke of the Speedwell.
In his activities attacking Spanish targets on the west coast of the Americas, he used Clipperton Island as a base from which to stage his attacks and store loot and supplies,
Oh,
So he was as portrayed accurately afterall.
Its an obvious point to make that If your name were Smith or Jones, your newfound environmentalism would be restricted to a self promotional website, thats all. A website featuring many species of concern, poor captive survival records, deepwater collecting issues and environmentally irresponsible collection issues as much as any.
It could be argued that the "eye candy approach" to aquarium fish promotion excites hobbyists and dulls the senses to issues of concern.
Steve
ps, Cohorts? Really? Did you claim to be set upon by "cohorts" ?
Steve - really, I can barely decipher the meaning of that post... and frankly I don't think I need to waste my time doing so anyway.
The whole Captain Clipperton thing is totally irrelevant... and getting tiresome. As said, its so transparently an effort to smear my name that I almost find it funny. If you'd done ANY real research into Clipperton you'd know it is unlikely he ever landed on the Atoll as it's surrounded by pretty hairy surf. By the way, during the period you refer to he bore 'the letter of the marque' so was essentially a Naval commander at the time. Comments on his 'dark' personality are anecdotal at best. Although very interesting, none of this has any relevance to the original post anyway!
Sure I am particularly interested in the Atoll because I've known about it since I was a small boy. I do feel a connection to the place. If that's some kind of crime then I'm guilty! :lol: My whole interest in marines stems from this connection actually.
Hopefully we can get back on topic now...
The whole Captain Clipperton thing is totally irrelevant... and getting tiresome. As said, its so transparently an effort to smear my name that I almost find it funny. If you'd done ANY real research into Clipperton you'd know it is unlikely he ever landed on the Atoll as it's surrounded by pretty hairy surf. By the way, during the period you refer to he bore 'the letter of the marque' so was essentially a Naval commander at the time. Comments on his 'dark' personality are anecdotal at best. Although very interesting, none of this has any relevance to the original post anyway!
Sure I am particularly interested in the Atoll because I've known about it since I was a small boy. I do feel a connection to the place. If that's some kind of crime then I'm guilty! :lol: My whole interest in marines stems from this connection actually.
Hopefully we can get back on topic now...
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
TODAY...it is...not then.
The closure of the atoll and lack of clean water transfer is more recent history.
Encyclopedia;
Clipperton Island is a nine-square-kilometre (approx. 3.5 square mile) coral atoll in the Eastern Pacific Ocean, southwest of Mexico and west of Central America, at . It has no permanent inhabitants.
Clipperton Island lies about south from Socorro island in the Revillagigedo archipelago, Mexico, the nearest land. The ring-shaped island has completely enclosed its lagoon for approximately a century and is 12 km in circumference. The lagoon, which is stagnant, has some deep basins (−43 m, −22 m) and one particularly deep spot (Trou-Sans-Fond, "bottomless hole") with acidic water (sulphuric acid) at the bottom. The lagoon is devoid of fish. Clipperton Rock, at is the highest point; it is a volcanic outcrop located in the southeast of the island.
Privateers are pirates contracted to join in the fight.
So, the English navy conferred a temporary status upon the them as a price for assistance. [plus all the plunder they could take by force ].
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
So,
The century that it has been closed was long after the pirate era.
It was not only open, but may have been an absolute wonderland of odd lagoon marinelife.
I mean it had a deep water zone w/ sulfuric influence inside the lagoon !
Whatever species may have adapted to that far-flung bay/lagoon over millions of years was lost when the lagoon closed. Thats where the greatest list of endemics may have occurred as a lagoon like that near no other for so long would have been an alien place indeed.
But, mother nature closed it and thats all she wrote.
Steve
The century that it has been closed was long after the pirate era.
It was not only open, but may have been an absolute wonderland of odd lagoon marinelife.
I mean it had a deep water zone w/ sulfuric influence inside the lagoon !
Whatever species may have adapted to that far-flung bay/lagoon over millions of years was lost when the lagoon closed. Thats where the greatest list of endemics may have occurred as a lagoon like that near no other for so long would have been an alien place indeed.
But, mother nature closed it and thats all she wrote.
Steve
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Hey,
I never met anyone else who was as obsessed with the regions history, the wildlife and the news on Clipperton as John.
If he were on our only voyage, he would have been surprised.
Several books have been written and we had them all.
Steve
I never met anyone else who was as obsessed with the regions history, the wildlife and the news on Clipperton as John.
If he were on our only voyage, he would have been surprised.
Several books have been written and we had them all.
Steve
Steve... just out of interest, can I ask why you are referred to as 'the infamous fish collector' in this article?
http://reefbuilders.com/2009/05/20/clip ... limbaughi/
seems you may have a colourful background yourself eh?
I'd urge people to read that article actually (not mine by the way)..... sums up the situation nicely.
FWIW, anyone else reading this, please feel free to visit the petition in the original link. :wink:
http://reefbuilders.com/2009/05/20/clip ... limbaughi/
seems you may have a colourful background yourself eh?
I'd urge people to read that article actually (not mine by the way)..... sums up the situation nicely.
FWIW, anyone else reading this, please feel free to visit the petition in the original link. :wink:
clippo":15fcx2sb said:
Clippo Jake Adams most likely would not use the word infamous today. At the time he had very little info to go on and what he did, didn't paint Steve in a positive light. Steve in the early 80's outed the use of cyanide in the collections of marine ornamentals. He then went on to write dozens of articles on it, started a training program to get them onto nets rather then dope and has been dealing with it since. He also outed, and helped get banner, Muro-ami, in the Philippines. He's trained divers in numerous countries on net collecting techniques.
So besides your website what have you actually done, I mean on the actual ground? Real action in other words!
So besides your website what have you actually done, I mean on the actual ground? Real action in other words!
You people just keep on trying to attack my character don't you :roll: . As said it really shows you for the kind of people you are. STILL no one has presented a valid argument against the petition (which I will consider if I see it). At the end of the day this collection is UNNECESSARY and driven by a GREEDY importer and group of UNETHICAL aquarists. Although it is completely irrelevant to the original post, I've not had the luxury of being able to get directly involved in marine conservation (yet). Everyone's got to start somewhere though I guess :wink: . By the way, if you are trying to say that 'words dont count' I wonder why you mention the 'dozens of articles' Steve's written?
Anyway, if you want to continue to take this off topic, I'd still love to know what Jake originally based that statement on though - from an unbiased party.
Come on reefs.org.... read between the lines and make a stand against these people.
You people just keep on trying to attack my character don't you :roll: . As said it really shows you for the kind of people you are. STILL no one has presented a valid argument against the petition (which I will consider if I see it). At the end of the day this collection is UNNECESSARY and driven by a GREEDY importer and group of UNETHICAL aquarists. Although it is completely irrelevant to the original post, I've not had the luxury of being able to get directly involved in marine conservation (yet). Everyone's got to start somewhere though I guess :wink: . By the way, if you are trying to say that 'words dont count' I wonder why you mention the 'dozens of articles' Steve's written?
Anyway, if you want to continue to take this off topic, I'd still love to know what Jake originally based that statement on though - from an unbiased party.
Come on reefs.org.... read between the lines and make a stand against these people.
clippo":3jwhjam4 said:
You're are vastly mistaken if you think I was attacking your "character" :lol:
I think it is you who keeps attacking characters... unethical aquarists... give me a break. You do not know me or even remotely understand me, yet you attack me with that?
OK. Tempting though it is to continue, lets try to turn it into something positive.
Steve - if you are really interested in responsible reefkeeping, I wonder if you will share some information with myself and others reading this thread.
When you visited the Atoll (in early 2009 I assume?), did you estimate the population of Clipperton Angels healthy?
what did you base this assessment on, previous visit or other data? If it was a previous visit, can I ask when this took place? was it a collecting trip?
if it was your own assessment, what methods did you use to make it.... simple observation.. or other techniques?
if it was other data, can I ask which specific data you used?
based on the above, how many H. limbaughi would you estimate there were in total around the atoll on your last visit?
Are they distributed evenly around the Atoll?
How many did you collect? (I belive they were a range of sizes/ages.. is that right? do you know what sex they were? - of so how did you sex them?)
Did you collect any other fish on the trip (not at the Atoll?)
How were they transported back? How where they held?
What boat did you go on, your own?
How many collecting dives were made, and where around the atoll? what depth?
What collecting technique did you use?
What other fishes did you collect? (if you did collect others, please list the species and evaluate population health).
Is your organisation certified at all? MAC for example? if not, any reason?
Finally, did you require specific permits for this collection?
If so, how did you get them, and where from? was getting them difficult?
Look forward to your responses.
Steve - if you are really interested in responsible reefkeeping, I wonder if you will share some information with myself and others reading this thread.
When you visited the Atoll (in early 2009 I assume?), did you estimate the population of Clipperton Angels healthy?
what did you base this assessment on, previous visit or other data? If it was a previous visit, can I ask when this took place? was it a collecting trip?
if it was your own assessment, what methods did you use to make it.... simple observation.. or other techniques?
if it was other data, can I ask which specific data you used?
based on the above, how many H. limbaughi would you estimate there were in total around the atoll on your last visit?
Are they distributed evenly around the Atoll?
How many did you collect? (I belive they were a range of sizes/ages.. is that right? do you know what sex they were? - of so how did you sex them?)
Did you collect any other fish on the trip (not at the Atoll?)
How were they transported back? How where they held?
What boat did you go on, your own?
How many collecting dives were made, and where around the atoll? what depth?
What collecting technique did you use?
What other fishes did you collect? (if you did collect others, please list the species and evaluate population health).
Is your organisation certified at all? MAC for example? if not, any reason?
Finally, did you require specific permits for this collection?
If so, how did you get them, and where from? was getting them difficult?
Look forward to your responses.
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